Moving with a 13 year old.

[mazza]

Hi....this is my first post on this forum so stick with me.......We have just put our home on the market and have already signed a compromise de vente in France.  We have been going to the same place for the past 10 years.  I have 3 children the youngest 13 and they have all literally grown up there, know the area, have friends etc:-  My two older sons have their lives planned out and have given us our blessing to move over.  My 13 year old can't wait to go over.  When we actually plan to go he will be 14.  What is the best time to enroll  him to start next September 2008?  What are the procedures and do I need any form of paperwork?

Any advice greatly appreciated

Thanks

Mazza.

[Kitty]

Welcome to the Forum.  Take a look at this thread.  Although it is about a teenager who doesn't want to move (unlike yours), it does have some useful information.

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1101592/ShowPost.aspx

You need to start choosing your school now - the open day (porte ouverte) season is starting soon.  I have four children and applied in about early March, from memory.  The schools themselves will tell you when.  I asked for interviews for all my children because it wasn't clear cut that they would take them.  A word of warning: once their numbers are full, they are not that flexible about taking extras.

Whereabouts in France will you be?

 

[Barbel Bob]

Hi,

We applied when we were still living in UK and he still did not start till 8weeks afer we arrived, so my advice would be sooner rather than later, my 13yr old son  had to sit an exam to decide which year he would join, it was in English, I think this depends on the area you are in as I posted  here for advice and no one had come across it before. We applied in writing and had to send in a copy of his previous school report all straight forward especially if your French is good. My first line was to ring the school and discuss the process, I would advise you do the same as it differs from region. I was also told he would need the BCG jab, but though they asked for it when I explained that he had not had it the did not push further.

My son  has been at school now for 3mths and is settled in quite nicely.......we thought the French lessons he had in UK and the fact that he had been doing so well at school was enough to give him the best start but it was'nt and him not being fluent was the only drawback, the school have been great and are given him extra tuition.

Good luck!

J

[Deby]

13 year old - does he speak good french, how is his written french? If he is less than average, remain in the UK until he has got his GCSE's/A levels and then move to France. Don't mess with his education - he may be keen but he is not  the best person to ask at such a tender age. Parents need to put their teenage childrens' educational needs first.

Sorry to be blunt and this is my advice.

Deby

[mazza]

Hi Cathy,

Thanks for your reply..wearemoving to the Vendee.

[Panda]

Sorry Mazza but I have to say I still struggle to imagine what would possess someone to move a child at this age.  Education is so important and the systems are very different, a new country with a new language, new curriculum just when teenage angst kicks in.  You will put him at such a disadvantage (IMHO) bringing him here rather than completing his education in the UK, so what is the driving force behind this move that is worth jeopardising your sons future for?

 

[Joy1]

Hi Mazza. On a more positive note, I think as long as your son is positive about the mood and prepared to work hard it can be done. We moved here when our son was 11 (I know, 2 years can make all the difference!) he went down 1 school year but is doing well at school and hasn't had to retake any years so far. His french teacher says his written and spoken french is now comparable with his classmates . He is in the second year of college (5eme). It has helped him enourmously that his dad is completely fluent in french and can help with french grammar and understanding homework. At the end of the day you know your own son and are best able to decide if making the move is right for him. It would be easier if he already knows as much french as possible before you move so I would suggest investing in private tution now, before you arrive.Moving over will be lots of hard work, but it can be done! Joy

[mazza]

Hi,

Thanks for your positive reply.

Maria

[mazza]

Hi Deby,

I am trying to put my sons interests first, that is why I am asking for advice and experiences of other people who have made the move to France.  I would not even contemplate this if my son did not want to move.  He studies French at school and is doing well.  When in France he has only french friends and manages to communicate well.

I am not saying this is a problem......I am asking for advice on procedures.

 

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

One thing to bear in mind is that speaking/listening is only part of the picture. My sons were orally bilingual when they started secondary school and quite capable of reading Asterix, etc in French. However they were not much better than their English friends when it came to writing. Their spelling was poor and they had no grasp of things like conjugating verbs, where the differences are visible but not pronounced. Your son will have had a couple of years of learning French at school, but I don't know how much emphasis there is on grammar nowadays. In France it is taken very seriously

The nearer a child is to their key public exams the more critical this problem gets. It's not necessarily a show-stopper but you do need to take it into account.

[Sprogster]

If you follow other similar threads the general consensus is that thirteen is the sensible cut off age for moving a child to a foreign country, where they are not fluent in the language of their new country. 

If your son will be 14 he will have started his GSCE curriculum and is therefore only two years from completing his all important secondary education public exams.

The problem is that his new French school has no obligation to educate him beyond 16 years of age, so the risk is that unless he can bring himself up to full French standard in two years, he would be asked to leave when he was 16.

Do you not have friends or relatives in the UK that he can stay with term time so he can complete his secondary education?

[Mackyfrance]

Moving a child straight in to college in France can be very difficult. My son's head told me the other day that they simply can't take another non-French speaking child (they only have about 5 out of a student body of 450) and said I must 'tell all my friends that it is too hard on the child, too difficult for the teachers and unfair on the other pupils'.

Spending holidays in France, even feeling at home and having friends is a completely different thing to actually living and going to school here.

School is completely different to the UK, very rigid and proscribed, light on practical subjects, generally poor in IT and heavily reliant on rote learning. Help for non-French speaking children varies hugely from 1to1 to nothing at all so that should be something to check out first.

Enrolment would be in the June preceding September entry.

I would think very carefully about moving a child at that age though.

Sorry to be a bit negative.

 

[Tresco]

[quote user="Mackyfrance"]Sorry to be a bit negative.

 [/quote]Don't worry about it Macky.

People asking questions about something that has no 'definte' answer should expect to hear a wide range of views, including 'negative' ones.

I've heard precisely the things you say (on this and other forums, but also from people I know in real life) about how different things are, and how very difficult it is for both children and parents to adjust, so you (and your children) aren't alone in your experiences.

For the OP at least you've given them things to look out for.

[Wendy]

"Spending holidays in France, even feeling at home and having friends is a completely different thing to actually living and going to school here."

Amen !

If only the 'France' that some people find and gloat about could be the same 'France' that other's find to be a total pain in the arse.

 

[Kitty]

Mazza

I've wanted to post a longer note to you, especially after the negative comments, but have been very ill.  This will be a long post.  I brought three out of my four children out to France as teenagers.  The 4th child is under 10.

You have obviously been thinking about this move for some time because you have been going to the Vendee for 10 years.  It's great that your son already has friends here.

Aged about 14/15, he will have to take 'Le Brevet' which is an exam stage that all French children have to go through.  At this stage, they are tested in all subjects, including for example PE.  To 'pass' you have to get an average of 10 out of 20 and, new this year, no lower than 10 out of 20 in English, so he will be all right on that requirement.

I am unsure which year that your son will join.  Le Brevet in done at the end of 3eme (troisieme).  It is a hard year to do straight off so you may like to consider him starting in 4eme (quatrieme).  One advantage of the French system is that if you struggle, you can re-do a year (redoubler).

After Le Brevet, he could take an academic route and do the Baccalauriat (not for the feint hearted) or could do a technical route, which is not generally on offer in the UK.

On the technical route, for example, two of my children go to a ecole professionnel where they receive an amazing technical education.  On the school site is a public restaurant and one of the children (aged 16) learns how to cook and serve two days per week and follows academic subjects for the rest of the week.  The 14 year old, on her course, is being given tasters to learn different aspects of employment e.g. hotel work, hospital work as well as the usual academic subjects.  The courses are hard - they are tested on every subject every 2 weeks - but they are holding their own even though they are not native speakers.  The great advantage to them is that they will be fully trilingual (they learn Spanish as well), which a UK education would not have given them.

I do not have a child doing the Bacc but I did attend a French lycee when I was a teenager and the Bacc is much harder than 'AS' and 'A2' levels.  You study all subjects (there are variations, depending on which Bacc you choose) and have to do well to get a good average.  You can't cherry pick subjects and drop the ones you don't like.  French teachers are very honest and school reports are very truthful, which can hurt a child not used to such critical comments.

When choosing a school, do not be surprised if they do not show you around (except on an open day).  Parents are left at the school gate in France.  I have not seen most of my children's classrooms, for example, even though I went to interviews etc.  The classrooms that I have seen are bare.  I am pleased with this as they do not spend time putting up displays for parents when they should be teaching.

You haven't mentioned why you are leaving the UK but I became very disallusioned with the state of UK education.  Libby Purves in The Times last week cited problems including the misguided trend in the UK for mixed ability teaching, 25 years of meddling with the curriculum by the UK government, the erosion of UK teachers' authority etc.  So sometimes, it isn't what you are going to but what you are leaving that spurs on the decision-making process.

Good luck with your move and integrating your son.  He will find it hard and he will need a lot of tender loving care during the first few months but the chances are that he will become biligual, or even trilingual.

 

[mazza]

Hi Cathy,

Thank you for your reply....as you said we have thought about this for a long time.... and my children's education is paramount.  We have pondered long and hard over this decision and have taken alot of time considering this move.

I am presently employed in a school and over the years have seen changes in the system and have also become disallusioned with the state of the UK education.  I work in a Primary school 3 to 11. We have 420 pupils in our school.... 95% are of various ethinc nationalities and 5% are british born.  Our teachers are dedicated and our school is a lovely place to be in, but again over the years I have slowly seen a decline as more and more teachers are off with stress and anxiety.  Most schools now have to employ permanent security on site (even in Primary schools) because of the level of violence and abuse that the staff get from pupils and parents.  I realise that my son has only a few years of education left (compulsary),   (and by the way.......the school which my son attends is fantastic........) and I feel we are half way there as he is agreeing to go.  I know it is going to be hard for him, but he will have our full support, and I know that he will apply himself.  If he finds anything out of his reach we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

I have to tell you this.....last year just before his 13th birthday we were all out cycling and our son turned to us and said "Dad you know if we came out here to live, I could do this all the time on my own and not be afraid of anyone attacking me or pulling me off my bike to steal it".  I was gob smacked !!!!! as at home I am the taxi driver...I even drop and pick up my 18 year old.  Not that I would be letting my guard down there..but for a child of 12 to come out with a statement like that..well what else can I say.

 

[Tresco]

Mazza,

I agree it's sad for a child to feel that way. I would have been really sad if my 12 year old had said that. He's all grown up now though.

What is it about the French education system that attracts you to France, though, rather than any other country?

[Kitty]

Mazza.  I shall warn you that there are differing kinds of violence here.  My children cannot use our French cycle path during the hunting season (without an adult) because of the worry of being shot at.  The hunters are supposed to stay away from the cycle paths but you will see from threads elsewhere on this Forum, this is all right in theory but not in practice.  Also, during the recent autumn strikes, my teenagers had to be barracaded into their boarding school for their own protection because of school children rioting outside.  Then, just to put you off further (!), one of the students at their school was injured in a shooting incident last term in the school grounds.

When the teenagers come home this weekend, I'll ask them to give me a list of the pluses and minuses of  being here.

 

[mazza]

Tresco..  I am not attracted to the French education system...it's just that we are planning to move....my husband has a job....I hope to be employed in their school....and we would like Dominic to be happy.  Someone wrote that it was different being there on holiday and having french friends..... than living and working there, we are fully aware of this and know that there are hurdles that we must overcome.

I have french friends who are teachers who have come over to stay with us.  Being employed in the education system in England I arranged for them to spend time in a couple of schools from Primary to High.  All three of them told me that the the english education system is very relaxed and the students do not have enough dicipline or respect for their teachers, and that their behaviour would not be tolerated in the french system. The only thing that they seemed to be in agreement of is the start and finishing times of the children. 

Having said all this my other two sons have thoroughly enjoyed their time in school (obviously not all the time)....have both done really well, and have gone on to further education.

[Tresco]

[quote user="mazza"]Tresco..  I am not attracted to the French education system...it's just that we are planning to move....my husband has a job....[/quote]

Sorry Mazza.

I got mixed up reading so many threads about people moving with children last night. [:$]

[Deby]

I hope to be employed by their school.....

Mazza,  I honestly didnt mean to be too blunt earlier.  It is very difficult to be employed in France certainly by the school. If you are a teacher, the chances are the qualifications would not be transferred, so you would have to spend several years doing the CAPESS, if you are not and wanted an administrative role, you would probably have to study in the French system and get the equivalent qualifications, plus your french would need to be fluent and you would need to have a thorough understanding of the french education system. If that was not enough to contend with there has to be a job available, most of these jobs tend to be a job for life, so unless someone dies or retires you will struggle, let alone with the fact that the school is more likely to favour a local person. 

I do not wish to pee on your bonfire so to speak but merely inform you of how it is in France, rural or otherwise.  Please do not be seduced by that holiday feeling.  Sensibly rent first - and continue as you are doing lots of research beforehand. Its good to get a balanced view and the Forum is certainly a place to hear how it is.  Yes, France is a great place, but it is not all about sunny days, great food and the feeling of freedom for children to roam around.

Best,

Deby

[rusheslake]

My good friend came over to France 4 years ago with a 12 & 14 year old... both boys.

Whilst the 12 year old, with much homework & home tuition just about coped the 14 y o found that his back was against the wall and Im afraid at 18 now finds himself without a job in rural France.

12 is without doubt the absolute latest you should contemplate uprooting a child and throwing into French education.

[Wendy]

I agree rusheslake. A move to France is a completely different prospect for the teens as opposed to their parents, basically because the parents are at one end of life whilst the teens are only just at the beginning.  It may be fine whilst your kids are attending the cute little village school and rattling off in French to their hearts delight...but what happens afterwards though? Mum and Dad might find that their niche is running a B&B, selling real estate to other expats or offering a translation and 'hand holding' service, but what happens when their kids have to leave school?

There is no doubt that bringing our kids to live in rural France has many advantages; peace, calm and a safer community in general for them to live in, but as for work prospects...they simply do not exist. For the local French teens and even more for the expat teens. The only way around this is to shift to a large city here...but who wants to do that when we can do that 'back home'? Expats, in general are attracted to rural French life. Fine for retiring to, but not for kids who are just starting out in life.

As  far as my experiences go, I have found that the Colleges here simply weed out who is fit to go onto Lycee and who is fit to register with Assedic each month from the age of 16. It seems a kids exam results decide the difference here, without taking into account what individual kids want to do with their life.

Even that woman who bought a Monastery near Mossett and penned 'Life in a Postcard' has sold up, left and returned to the UK with her son. She knew where the limitations lay with regards to her child's future.

Using hindsight I would have stamped my foot a lot harder five years ago. I wish we had waited...about a good twenty years before coming here. With regards to families; a move to France should benefit everyone in the long run...not just Mum and Dad.

 

 

 

 

[cooperlola]

You are right, Jura and Rusheslake, but there are ways around this.  My o/h's niece and nephews have lived here for years (my BiL works for the University in Marseilles).  The eldest is going to Uni' in the UK now and quite happily commuting between the two countries.  Job prospects will now be available to her both sides of the channel - not just one.  I suspect the boys will do the same thing.

But it is a truly different thing for the academically less gifted, that's for sure.  There is not a lot of work in this country and it's worth considering.  Many French are now seeking work in the UK - (I had several French friends when I lived in the UK who had done just that) and at least that's easier for a bilingual person than one who is not.

Yes, it's important to consider their employment prospects in France, but once they are old enough, they can chose to go to the UK if they wish.

[Wendy]

Yes Cooperlola, but how do you simply place a 15/16 year old  into a UK secondary school when they have only ever been educated in France?...I have a friend whose daughter is 15. They arrived here when she was 7. They returned to the UK in July last year. This girl has never studied upper primary and secondary school work in the english language, in fact, I found when speaking to her here that her english language skills were very poor indeed. She only ever used the english language when speaking with mum and dad at home...she primarilly operated in French with her friends and teachers. Her parents spoke hardly any French at all and she is an only child.  This is another problem...people bring kids here at a very young age, put them through several years of french education and then expect them to just slip back into the UK system. My friends daughter is having the same problems now in her UK school as a French-born child would have if just dumped in a UK school with very poor english.

Your kids do not have the best of both worlds, either you educate them as French or as British and depending which age you change them over means they will only ever be either one or the other. The earlier and the longer you school them in France the more problems they will have coping with a British education later on.