Buying a house from a private vendor

[Happy Expat]

Hoping to move soon from UK. Has anyone bought from a private vendor rtaher than an agent? If so what is the procedure compared to using an agent. Appreciate that obviously agents fees are avoided but what other costs are there and are there any pitfalls for the unwary please.

 

Bob & Jane

[Will]

You will have to pay legal fees (notaires fees plus taxes), just as you would if buying through an agent. There are several online calculators to help you estimate fees, they vary accoring to whether its a new or old house, whether or not you have a mortgage etc.

As you won't have an agent to help you, it may be worth getting somebody experienced to help you out with dealing with electricity and water companies, local authorities etc - that won't cost too much. Also you may need a translator to help out with various documents, a lot of notaires insist on a translator being present at the signing.

You may want to get the paperwork checked, and get legal advice about inheritance etc, that can often be combined with translation.

[Iceni]

We bought privately. The owner was American which reduced language difficulties a bit. He helped us with utility companies and the Maire + DDE to arrange transfer of p de c and moificatifs.

As regards the legal side we used a firm of UK solicitors for translation and explanations but the proverbial chocolate fireguard would have been more use. This was a firm of "specialists" whose name appears on both this and T(hat other) F(orum) so we would NOT recommend them but sadly incompetence cannot be named and shamed.

There was just the one notaire, found by the vendor, who spoke a little English but went through the acte very slowly line by line with lots are you sure you understand ? Are you really sure that you understand ?

Is it worth going private to save several thousand euros ?  I cannot help you with that other than to say  "caveat emptor".

John

not

 

[Alexis]

Before the rise of the agent, we all bought our houses from the Notaire directly so would you call that privately or do you mean something out of the paper?

There is NO need to employ an agent.  You just have to do a lot more yourself and a lot of folk feel more confident using an agent because of the different language and the different buying process.  Swings and roundabouts.  Are you confident enough to go solo so to speak?  Getting insurance, changing the water, EDF etc are not difficult.  Lots of pointing and shrugging of shoulders but possible!

In the end it is you to decide I'm afraid.

[Teamedup]

You'll save money by not using an estate agent. Utitilies, well, the vendor will tell you who to contact, it isn't as if there is choice here.  

Since when exactly was it a part of a french estate agents job to sort out one's utilities? They do not do that around here, I suggested that a friend ask them to do that last year, she had paid the estate agent in question a lot of money for their 'service' and she was sent packing, respectfully sent packing, but never the less sent packing. And I'm pretty sure that our builder would have sent us packing too if I had in any way suggested that they help us in any way with this.

Do UK estate agents do this?

 

[Dog]

I bought direct from an English couple that had been given the house 25 years ago as a wedding present.

Had trouble with the French Notaire who spent 360 days a year on the golf course rather than working. I eventually paid an English based French lawyer to wake the French Notaire up.

Further complications arose as the people we bought from had to get proof from all other family members that they had no claim on the property.

Good part was we paid Sterling in UK for the house and saved conversion costs.

[Happy Expat]

Thanks for all your advice, it has helped to clarify things a bit for us. Must say this Forum is great, very helpful and interesting in all maner of things.

 

Thanks again

 

Bob & Jane

[Will]

Ex-c2 - glad we could help clarify things.

TU, don't want to start one of those 'are agents worth it' discussions but as you know Mrs Conq works for an agent and does put in a lot of effort helping people with electricity, water, planning permissions etc. That office believes that they are paid by the buyer, so the buyer deserves something in return, and most buyers are not confident themselves with the language and/or procedures. UK agents don't help with things like that, but then they work for the seller and get a smaller percentage.

Of course some agents are less obliging, just as can be seen from the replies some UK-based legal advisers are invaluable and others useless, also French notaires of course. Notaires are basically government offcials and as a rule won't exactly put themselves out or move quickly, and although they are OK as lawyers their marketing skills and salesmanship qualities when selling houses can leave something to be desired. But there are some excellent ones too of course.

[Jonzjob]

We are buying through a notaire. In Carcassonne the notaires have got together and formed their own 'immobilier'. Now we have the situation where we are getting the agents service, all the utilities sorted, etc. and still dealing directly with the notaire. Incidentally, the agent is English and VERY helpful

No matter what is said, if the seller is using an agent and paying 7.5 or 8%ish they will put that on the price they are asking whereas the notaire is only charging the seller about 3%ish for his/her services.

In most cases that we have seen the buyer does not pay the agents fees, the seller does that, but if you think that most sellers are not going pass them on to the buyer then please can I come and live on your world .. Which ever route you take I wish you good luck and loadsa happiness in your new life here...

John.

[Alexis]

That is new to me.  It has always been the buyer who paid the Agent, never the seller.  When I sold the other year I never paid a thing but the buyers did.  Quite a lot it was.

Is it a new thing?

I always buy through the Notaire so have not had to pay anything other than the asking price and the Notaire's charges.

[Happy Expat]

Thanks for all your help and advice. Seems as though it may be another path to explore for us.

 

Bob & Jane

[Teamedup]

Alexis, It is always the buyer that pays. Your notaire will have included his fee in the charges you incurred........can't see notaires being that benevolant as to do this for free.

[Hagar]

TU - Agree that in one sense it is always the buyer that pays.

In our case the buying price we discussed with the vendor always included the agents fees - right from day one to the signing of the acte. So was very similar to how it's done in the UK and appeared as if the vendor was paying the agent.

The agents fees were not included in the notaire's fees but the agent did turn up at the signing of the acte to pick up a cheque from the notaire.

Hagar

 

[Will]

In most of France it's buyers who pay agency and legal fees, but there seem to be a couple of areas in the south where the seller pays, at least the agency fees, as in UK. However, at the end of the day it's just added on to the selling price so the buyer still pays indirectly.

FAI (frais agence inclus, agency fees included) asking prices are pretty common, but always be careful where an all-inclusive price is quoted and this includes notaire fees. Most buyers find it better to treat these separately, because notaire fees can vary - they are always less if you buy without a mortgage, and notaires generally over-estimate on taxes, with a refund to follow. If you've paid the whole lot together you've probably paid more than you needed to.

[moon]

I always think this discussion of who pays is confusing. I buy a house in uk for £150,000 thats all I pay, the vendor pays the agent his £2,000 or whatever and clears £148,000, in france I buy a house for 150,000 euros the vendor gets his asking price which is probably 140,000 euros and the agent gets his 10,000. In both cases I also have to pay legal fees. Same deal really I never think I am paying the agent any more than I did in the UK.

However the big difference is if you buy in france with a mortgage, then you will find the lender will only lend on the 'value' of the property in the above case 140,000 euros not the 150,000 euros you have paid.

I have seen a number of people caught out this way.

Bob

[Teamedup]

So what do Uk estate agents charge? Widnesbob's example of £2000 or whatever would be what percentage.

The 10k euros is a lot and a lot more than £2k. And I know that the immoblier around here quite happily take from 8-10% and no hand holding with anything.

[moon]

I was only using the figures as a broad assumption, some UK agents have moved from a percentage usually between 1-2% to a fixed fee. We are selling an investment property in UK valued at £80,000 and fee is £1000. Having said that on your figures I have seriously underestimated with the 10k euros.

Bob