Lehaut Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2012/02/03/prepas-l-excellence-au-prix-fort_1637985_3224.htmlTook our eldest to Rennes and Nantes as he is interested in this route, Nantes highlighted the article at the link. The teachers did not comment on the specifics but invited us to speak to the pupils to get a true insight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The replies, as often are illuminating:"C'est un système d'une autre époque surtout que la prépa en France ne stimule pas la créativité mais le conformisme. Le conformisme de travailler des mois entiers pour reproduire ce que l'on juge des "connaissances standard". On juge donc un étudiant à 18-20 ans (et pour le reste de sa vie) sur sa capacité de reproduire un programme quelconque qui permet de passer un examen. Ca ne fait pas de lui un chercheur, intellectuel, ingénieur ou enseignant créatif et ouvert. Souvent ça crée des machines." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richardbk Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 indeed - spend 2 years rote learning and regurgitating in a brutal boot-camp regime and even then you have a very limited chance of getting into a grande ecole. Grand ecoles are great if you want to be chossen to run a French administration or a French company but with globalisation the latter is becoming more irrelevant. For a real education and learning experience a French university is not the place to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richardbk Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The title of the article is misleading. There is no "excellence" in the real sense of education.You spend 2 years rote learning and regurgitating in a brutal boot-camp regime (even worse then the school system) and even then you have a very limited chance of getting into a grande ecole. Grand ecoles are great if you want to be chossen to run a French administration or a French company but with globalisation the latter is becoming more irrelevant. For a real education and learning experience a French university is not the place to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 [quote user="NormanH"]The replies, as often are illuminating ... [/quote]Well, at least the article got a lively discussion going ... [:)]Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 It interests me that French universities don't feature in world rankings in a significant way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lehaut Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 We do find ourselves in a difficult decision. The yardstick by which the French judge their education system to obtain the best results would seem to be this route. Having chosen to live in another country, encouraging your children to do well in the system the country recognises so that they have a reasonable chance to gain fruitful employment would seem to us to be a sensible decision. In neither Rennes nor Nantes was there any indication of a boot camp mentality reflected in the conversations we had with the students. They had chosen to be there and wanted to work. Interestingly Mines -Pont has now introduced a higher level of English for their concours - their rational being that English is not a luxury but a necessity is perhaps the first crack in the dam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I haven't worked in the Prépas, but I did in the next stage, les Grandes Ecoles where I taught English, not the main scientific subjects.The students certainly have a great capacity to work in the sense of absorbing materiel, but complained that they weren't learning anything if asked to use the language in say a role-play situation.They only think they are learning if they are acquiring facts or information, and have almost no idea of the value of gaining proficiency in the use or application of that material.They are also almost childishly dependent on being "noté" ..(having marks) and they don't seem to have any idea that the person giving the marks might be fallible.This comes from years of conditioning in the system.I can see that any able child who has gone through the French system would value this route, and my observations are as seen from a non-French point of view.The article is typically self-congratulatory in tone, as this whole issue is a real blind spot between France and the rest of the educational world.I would normally recommend a UK University ( a real one [:)]) over a French one apart from the fact that it could be vary destabilising for someone who has been through the system here To be fair, the reason that French Universities don't figure highly in some lists is that the brightest and best go down this route of Prépa and Grande Ecole, and these aren't counted in the those league tables.The rest go to University, which is little more than a FE college in many cases ( I have also worked in one of those) However..The best MBA programme in Europe is in France... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Lehaut, if your eldest wants to do this and can do this, then why not. It will suit some people down to the ground.The culture of how things educational are seen and judged in France is at odd with the way I judge and see the world. I have had very bad things to say about french education, but I have always said that it suits some people and it does. Please remember though that the pupils you saw are not the drop outs, they will have gone by now. NH, you did make me smile sadly at such a tragedy, not learning through role-play, only a stagnant imagination could think that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richardbk Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 "There are two lasting bequests we can give our children. One is roots. The other is wings"These days there are countless good opportunities in the world to get a good higher education. France in my view is not even close to the top 10. Just because they have been through the French system and you are resident here does not seem to me to be a reason as to why they should to do their higher education in France , or indeed why subsequently they would be wanting employment in France. Anybody that has the potential to get to a Grand Ecole, should also have a pretty good chance at some of the top UK or US universities, perhaps even with a scholarship. There is no comparison in terms of the education and "world" recognition they would receive. Grand Ecoles are only important to the French. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richardbk Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 [quote user="NormanH"]The best MBA programme in Europe is in France...[/quote]Yes. I have been there, but it has absolutely nothing in common with the French education system. It is a totally private anglo-saxon style post-grad institution, where knowledge of French is not even a requisit ( it used to be). All courses are taught in English and very very few of the faulty are French. Most are from US, UK or other European countries. It also has another campus in Singapore and by all measure really is a global institution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 That explains it! I couldn't understand how that could be, knowing what I do of the rest of the system... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lehaut Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 His mind is not closed to other routes. He has sat the SATs at the American School in Rennes. He wanted to gauge the chances of a scholarship to MIT. He was a year younger than the other, mainly US children (there were two French pupils) who took the exam. I had spoken to the head of the school who promised faithfully to give some help with the understanding of the US system (he never did!) Interestingly he was in the 84th percentile for English (he has only formally learnt English in the French system). On the maths he noted that the French system had not adequately prepare him for the american approach to problem solving. As others have commented, rote learning does not adequately stimulate the mind in this direction. Again, talking to the Prépas students, outside the box thinking is now part of the programme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 He is obviously very bright.One other thing to mention is that the prépa route takes up a year or two before even starting in Higher Education, which explains why French students graduate so late.As you know qualifications are often measured in number of years (Bac+5, Bac+7 etc) I once completely threw a candidate in a 'mock' interview by asking 'why did it take you so long to get to this level?' There is no idea that a skill or ability can be developed more quickly by someone able: all is measured by time spent studying, which reflects the content- based approach.I fully understand that if his future is in France, and he is capable of doing this it is a natural choice, but as with others I am not convinced of the value of the pedagogy in an absolute sense.Good luck to him in what ever he chooses.[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richardbk Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 " Again, talking to the Prépas students, outside the box thinking is now part of the programme" It should not be just part of the programme, it should be the very essence or ethos of a university progarmme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lehaut Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 Thanks for the input, its always useful to get other peoples thoughts on a situation, too easy to get blinkered. We too thought that the 2 years prépas was an added time on, but if Grande Ecole is not the aim then the student can move sideways into the last year of a University degree course. This overcomes the weeding procedure that takes during the first two years of normal university in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 A very interesting and informative thread, thanks to all, especially to Norman, for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Query?The prépa courses are heaily subsidised and effectively free to the scholars; including free transportation from residence to the nearest Lycée, usually Poitiers, providing courses.OK! A heavy price paid by the tax-payer maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now