high selling fees

[mrsmop]

I just saw this, couldn't believe my eyes.

-10%=      10% fees? must be wrong. must be 1%. can't be 0.1%.

 

 

Tous nos prix s'entendent FAI c'est à dire frais d'agence inclus.

Nos honoraires sont :

-10%TTC de 0 à 61000 €
-09%TTC de 61001 € à 99000 €
-08%TTC de 99001 € à 130 000 €
-07%TTC > 130 000 €

 

 

[Alexis]

Sounds about right.  Some agencies charge a set fee for a house what ever the price.  About £3000?  Probably more now.

Why do you think we keep banging on about going directly to the Notaire???

[Will]

The advice about going direct to the notaire is excellent if you speak good French and have a thorough understanding of the French house buying process.

A lot of people don't realise that notaires charge a selling commission too - on a government-controlled scale ranging from 5% to 2.5%, plus TVA at 19.6%. In most (though by no means all) cases an agent will provide a hand-holding and translation service whereas a notaire generally doesn't.

Agency fees of 7% upwards (including TVA) are quite normal in France, so buyers should expect a lot more help and support than they would receive in England.

[Teamedup]

That is right. And bear in mind that brits coming here expect hand holding included in this fee. In this area there is no handholding or help with utilities around here for that fee. It is a simple showing around the property and sorting out with the notaire.

[Plato comes homePlato]

Hi..I forgot and William the conqueror prodded me when i returned to site....re Notaires..there may be a sales commission involved if they sell the property to you..not always but their other fees are statuatory, not commissions. The commissions increase as it goes through hands..start with Notaire , then add for Agent or "sub agent" and more if there is a line up of subagents as there sometimes are in english run dealings..then add again for property bought via SAFER. Least commission is direct purchase of course and hundreds of properties carry for sale signs by owners but ensure the prices are at least realistic by comparison. Some wonderful properies are NOT listed with Agents.. .

Whilsy some few shonky Notaires(yes I know of some..often dealing with English sub agents) also speak English,and others don't want to speak it even if they can!...there are plenty of ways even via the Mairie to get translaton done. It is also simple enought to use or offer hire to a French person of character who can also speak English.

Don't get the misleading idea that you will pay more commission to a Notaire than an agent or some additional commission but DO keep in mind the Notaires charges are statuatory and scale and his role is to ensure that the GOVERNMENT positon o the land is protected and that also means you are protected..ok. The long history of youtr properety can be tracked as Notaires keep these files. The older English "old system's" title required this also.

[Will]

Most English sub-agents share the commission with the French agent, so there is not any extra cost to either buyer or seller. However, a few charge their own separate 'handling fees' for providing the services that you should get included by the French agent.

[Teamedup]

Plato, take the english completely out of this equation and the big agent immoblier still charge these fees. They will to the usual advertising take the people to the place a couple of times and arrange r-de-v with the notaire and that is it. You spend 300Keuros on a place or more and that is a lot of money they get for very little.

They do not as I reiterate hand hold or have sub agents or anything like that. In fact those who get all that are getting a bargain compared to french people in other regions.

[Baz]

Having been involved in both selling and buying property in the UK and France, I have always maintained that the French Agents charges cannot be justified. I know that people will talk about so called "Hand Holding" that many agents are prepared to give but this in no way justifies their high rates of  commission. As an example, I recently sold properties in the UK and France, the UK property was  four times the price of the French property, yet the Estate Agents in the UK were prepared to negotiate a fixed price including VAT of £3000 and the French Agents received commission of £5100.  Need I say anymore, it is a rip off.

Baz

[Scarlett]

Baz,

I totally agree with you.

Most people seem to agree that house prices are most definitely on the up, but agents and notaires' fees remain the same. Simple mathematics, they're making one hell of a profit (and to add insult to injury, in the main they pay their négociateurs peanuts). I think that the best way to sell a house is by private sale, then you only need to pay the notaire the statutory fee for registry etc.

As mentioned before, dodgy notaires do exist - yes, speaking fluent french helps to an extent but then I have french friends who were done over by a so-called pillar of respectability (notaire) - I would just say, take verbal assurances with a good pinch of salt and if you smell a rat, insist that they put it all down in writing.

How many people are aware that the history of a property (rights of passage, previous ownership) can be easily checked at the french land registry (bureau des hypothèques) .. well worth doing if there is a rather suspect right of passage across your land!

Getting back to the subject, how come some enterprising estate agency hasn't undercut this greedy bunch and offered lower percentages? Only a matter of time, I should think ...

[mrsmop]

From my experience the estate agents in France hardly ever send you any property print-out details.

Also when they do, they don't include room measurements.

7% for say 300K Euro house = 21000 Euros. £15000.

For that amount, I would put my own big advert in the local paper instead.

 

So the french pay 7% when they buy and 7% when they sell. 

[Teamedup]

I must admit that friend negociated a little and got it down a bit, but not much. However, one doesn't have to go to an estate agent to sell, thus avoiding these fees and usually both parties benefit.

[Swissbarry]

I’ve tried hard to like French estate agents, because I’m sure most of them are nice enough people just doing a job to make a living.  But it’s not easy for me, because having twice bought and sold houses in France I have yet to find out what exactly it is that they do for their 6% or 7% or whatever.

 

I suppose they do have their overheads and expenses, and I’m willing to concede that their motoring costs must be high, judging by the number of miles and hours they wasted taking me to view totally unsuitable properties that met none of my criteria.  One took me to view one house which hadn’t ever been for sale and another house – on the same day – which they couldn’t even find.  More recently, I was taken to see a cottage that had been sold three months previously.  I have even had the embarrassing experience of being presented at a house which I had already viewed with another agent – different photographs and of course inadequate details of location.

 

And the ones I’ve dealt with certainly don’t spend much on preparing their house sales brochures.  These rarely extend to more than one sheet of paper, often with no more than a single photograph, and a few lines of text, sometimes inaccurate and often badly translated or not translated at all.  None of them incorporated a plan of the house in their particulars.  And none of them ever gave me any feedback after showing prospective buyers round. And to think that I used to be dissatisfied with UK estate agents!

 

In the unlikely event that I get a second chance at this world, I’ll settle for coming back as the owner of a French estate agency.  That’s if I can’t be a Concorde pilot or Britney Spears.

[Jonzjob]

We are really lucky here in the Carcassonne area because the notairs have grouped together and formed what is their own immo. They only charge the normal notairs fees, one of the people working for them is an English lady, you get the handholding service i.e. services connected, etc. All in all it has made buying our house very good. I asked if the situation here was normal in France and she said that there is only about 3 other places that have done the same. And it was only by chance that a French friend of ours pointed us in that direction.

Nothing is too much trouble! And the notair is a gentleman tooooooo!

Very pleased John & Frances .

[Fantine<br><br><br><br>Susie]

"So the french pay 7% when they buy and 7% when they sell"

mrsmop,

AFAIK only the purchaser pays the Immo fees.

[Iceni]

Let's see if I have understood so far - the house in France is only a fraction of the cost it would be in the UK yet you want to pay only a UK estate agent's %. I wonder how the phrase "whinging Pom" came about ?

In any country the buyer ultimately bears agents fees - just in the UK the seller writes the cheque.

John who does not sell houses for a living

not

[Ron Avery]

[quote]Baz, I totally agree with you. Most people seem to agree that house prices are most definitely on the up, but agents and notaires' fees remain the same. Simple mathematics, they're making one hell ...[/quote]

Ever heard of making hay while the sun shines, if French agents are greedy what does that make UK Agents?

First a 10% selling fee is high and not the norm, unless the agent is also doing some of the legal work like drafting the compris.  Immos charging 10% should at least be doing that and in these cases the Notaire's fees should be lower so the whole pot paid by the buyer stays the same. Most people on the many Forums where this topic has been discussed who have actually bought and sold properties agree that the costs of buying should be around 10-12 % of the selling price and that includes TVA

Some posting here seem not to realise the seller pays nothing, and so can place their property with any number of agents, so in many case outlay by a immo on a property, visits, publicity etc  can be for no return.

Where does €300k come from?, the average rural property in France is nothing like that figure.

Remember, this ain't the UK where you pick up a bundle of 8 houses and see them all in an afternoon.  Someone asked what French Immos do for their money?  Well they spend a lot of time and petrol driving long distance between the properties on their books for a start.  When we bought ours we looked in the Creuse first and with an excellent agent we saw five properties in two days with a total mileage of over 300 miles.  When comparing French Agent's "profits" with the UK, just remember most UK agents now charge the seller near to 3%, so on a £150-200K what exactly are you getting for your £5-6000?   A one and only visit to take pictures,  an inflated valuation by an ex double glazing salesman who values your property by comparing it withe one they sold down the road, your house details printed up and left for any Tom, Dick and Harry to pick up, your property on a national website (if you are lucky) and a slot in the middle of the local paper for the first two weeks anyway.  Oh and the occasional presence of the agent or a junior for a viewing when you really cannot get time off work again to show your house to the 33rd time waster "who is only in the area for the day and hasn't even put their house on the market yet  Ever been shown round a French property without the Agent being there?

[Scarlett]

From what several people tell me, estate agents have only recently taken to accompanying potential clients to properties - this is because they are worried that competitors will get in first!

I just find that 7, 8 or 9% on a property is a good deal of money, especially when the people paid to actually source said properties are paid peanuts(again, I know people who have done this job). Sure, some people will say make your money while you can, but the increase in house prices is starting to annoy people in some quarters, and I can't help but think that local notaires and estate agents are doing nothing to improve matters.

 

[Teamedup]

Eh oh! 300k comes from me. And could have easily come from others too. A far more likely figure for a lot french property in some regions of France.

Around here the estate agents don't usually have far to drive. I would say in general the properties on their books would not usually be more than 15kms away and most would be well within 10km. Around here they don't have any handholding as their clients are usually french. Around here they charge those excessive percentages on properties which are expensive. Around here as is usual in France, people do not usually move once they have bought, deplacement or divorce are the usual reasons people move.

[BJSLIV]

The odd thing is that Estate agents in the UK sense are a relatively new arrival on the French scene. Over the last ten years their share of the market seems to have increased, and the French seems happy to  move their business away from Notaires to "expensive" Agents. Strange behaviour?

 

[mrsmop]

[quote]"So the french pay 7% when they buy and 7% when they sell"mrsmop,AFAIK only the purchaser pays the Immo fees.[/quote]

I meant that they pay 7% to estate agents when they sell and 7% stamp duty/legal fees when they buy.

[Ron Avery]

[quote]I meant that they pay 7% to estate agents when they sell and 7% stamp duty/legal fees when they buy.[/quote]

Not wishing to offend anyone but this thread is falling into the realms of fanatasy, French Agents not accompanying buyers until recently.....  sellers paying agents fees and buyers paying stamp duty   Stamp duty en France???? 

TU, don't know when you last bought a house, but  "round here" wherever that is, is not the norm at all.  Having looked at properties in the Aveyron, the Lot, The Dordogne, the Tarn and Tarn et Garonne,  I never saw the inside of any property without the Agent and they were ALL french sellers.  No French agent will even tell you where the house is, let alone let you visit on your own. 

On occasions, after we had seen a couple of properties AND signed a paper with the agent giving them the right to any fees from any sale of that property (should you try and do a private deal with the owners),  I was given directions to far flung properties that might be of interest, so that we could take a look at the outside and neighbourhood before arranging a visit, but that was very much the exception.

[Teamedup]

Are you confusing handholding with visits. I have never said that the estate agents don't accompany clients. Although they usually do not have far to go. What they do not do is sort out utitilities here and that sort of thing. It isn't their job in the UK and frankly I was shocked when I saw that they do it here.  

Now why would I want to even consider buying in any of the places you have mentioned.  I have even been put off looking at Brittany now, which I truly do love, too many brits I'm afraid.

 

[Miki]

Now why would I want to even consider buying in any of the places you have mentioned.  I have even been put off looking at Brittany now, which I truly do love, too many brits I'm afraid.

Ah TU but Brittany is a huge department and we know of only one couple of Brits within at least 8 km's, far enough but near enough then ! No offence to anyone whatsoever but the largest concentration of Brits are in the centre of Brittany.

Now to live on the coastline around here and you can almost be sure that you will be among very few Brits and no I am not lucky (read rich) enought to be among them

 

[mrsmop]

[quote]Not wishing to offend anyone but this thread is falling into the realms of fanatasy, French Agents not accompanying buyers until recently ..... sellers paying agents fees and buyers paying stamp duty...[/quote]

not wishing to offend anyone, stamp duty/ registration fees (what ever you want to call them) do exist in France.

The correct name is actually "Droits d'enregistrement".

These fees are actually 4.89% in France. Whatever you call it, it's money that goes to the government when you buy a house. Plus notaires fees on top, it comes to around 6-7% in all.

 

 

[Ron Avery]

[quote]Are you confusing handholding with visits. I have never said that the estate agents don't accompany clients. Although they usually do not have far to go. What they do not do is sort out utitilities he...[/quote]

"I have never said that the estate agents don't accompany clients"

No you didn't TU but Scarlett did

Are you confusing handholding with visits?

No,  a visit is when the Agent takes you from their office to  the house,  handholding is when they hold your hand

"Now why would I want to even consider buying in any of the places you have mentioned"

I said  "Having looked" TU (not have a look)

You don't have to believe me, pay a visit to any of the guides about buying houses in France,  They all say the same or similar " Allow plenty of time to view properties so that you can spend enough time in each, do not expect to see many properties in a day, remember that properties in France may be quite some distance from one another"