Tom Tom 910 - legal in France?

[Andyphilpott]

As the new Tom Tom Go 910 contains French safety camera locations (by GPS referencing) as part of its pre loaded software, and as I understand it the use of such camera locators is illegal in France, does that mean that this Tom Tom unit cannot be used in France?

It is possible to deactivate the safety camera locator but not really to delete it from the software. Will deactivating suffice?

Or have I got it entirely wrong and it is only radar detection devices which are illegal?

Any experts out there?

I have asked TomTom but they have not yet got back to me, the absence of a response suggesting to me that maybe there is a problem.

Andy Philpott

[BJSLIV]

Detectors are illegal not GPS systems. Even Michelin maps show the camera positions. Of course the main threat is from the mobile cameras.

[P]

Surely the main threat is the driver exceeding the speed limit

[Postie]

Touche P

[Andyphilpott]

The previous 2 posters seem to have missed the point by getting on that old speeding hobby horse again.  My question had nothing to do with speeding but it will always suit some to twist a question to provide a platform for their views on alternative subjects.

I did not suggest that I intend to exceed the speed limit. I do not advocate dangerous driving in any form and that includes both speeding and those who tootle along at too low a speed causing congestion.

My question was simply whether using this NAVIGATION equipment was illegal simply because it also showed where safety cameras are located. BJSLIV clarified that and I have now heard from Tom Tom who agree with him, pointing out the the French Government publish the locations and indeed they are now shown on most road maps. They point out that these are called SAFETY cameras and they clearly have no problem in drivers knowing where they are given both the publication of data and the prominent signs shortly before the location of the cameras; in fact it is believed that this improves their effectiveness. However Tom Tom make the point that the difficulty could come where trying to explain this to a gendarme who might be unable, or more likely unwilling, to understand this point of law.

Has anyone out there been stopped and questioned about using these navigation tools?

Andy Philpott

[expat paul]

Hi,

 I have had my TomTom for nearly 2 years with no problems. In fact I was stopped for a roadside document check earlier this year, the Gendarme saw my Tomtom and asked what model it was, and was it good, cos he wanted one but hadn't decided on a make or model.

 

Paul

[Andyphilpott]

Thanks Paul - that is what I was hoping to hear!

Andy

[Salty Sam]

Andy,

I can second that. I update my GPS as and when new cameras are fixed.

It is not an offence to know the whereabouts of fixed cameras and that information is readily available anyway.

It is an offence to use a device designed to receive signals emitted from non-fixed speed detectors and, as we know, the use of these is very common in France.

[Richard-R]

Detectors are NOT banned in France any longer and in fact the camera locations have always been posted in the motoring press and on French websites.

[Salty Sam]

Richard,

I don't know where you have obtained your information but unless the position has changed within the last few days, the position is as I stated earlier i.e. it is legal to use GPS fixed speed camera locaters.

It is NOT permissable to use a device designed to detect radar or laser detection systems.

" Radar detectors are illegal in France whether in use or not. If you should be caught with such equipment in your vehicle, you are liable to a prison sentence, a fine, confiscation of the device and the vehicle. You should therefore ensure radar detectors are removed from your vehicle before commencing any journey to France."

Foreign & Commonwealth Office Travel Advice for France as at 23 August 2006.

[Sunday Driver]

FAQ published by Securite-Routiere.gouv.fr:

"Quelle sanction encourt-on si l'on dispose d'un radar de détection pour les contrôles de vitesse ? La loi sanctionne à la fois la vente et l'utilisation de ces matériels. L'article R 413-15 du Code de la route - partie réglementaire réprime cette infraction : "le fait de mettre en vente, de vendre, de détenir, d'utiliser, d'adapter, de placer, d'appliquer ou de transporter, à un titre quelconque un appareil, dispositif ou produit destiné soit à déceler la présence, soit à perturber le fonctionnement d'instruments servant à la constatation des infractions à la législation ou à la réglementation de la circulation routière est puni de l'amende prévue pour les contravention de la 5ème classe. Cet appareil, ce dispositif ou ce produit est saisi et confisqué. En outre, lorsque l'appareil, le dispositif ou le produit est placé, adapté ou appliqué sur un véhicule, celui-ci peut être saisi et confisqué. Toute personne coupable de l'infraction prévue au présent article encourt également la peine complémentaire de suspension, pour une durée de trois ans au plus, du permis de conduire, cette suspension pouvant être limitée à la conduite en dehors de l'activité professionnelle" Les militaires de la gendarmerie sont extrêmement sensibles à ce problème et agissent avec la plus grande sévérité."

[Quillan]

My french is not so good so I got Sunday Drivers post translated.:

The law sanctions with the time the sale and the use of these materials. The article R 413-15 highway code - lawful part represses this infringement: “the fact of putting on sale, of selling, of holding, of using, of adapting, of placing, of applying or of transporting, with an unspecified title an apparatus, device or product intended either to detect the presence, or to disturb the operation of instruments being used for the observation of the infringements to the legislation or the regulation of the road traffic is punished fine planned for the infringment of the 5th class. This apparatus, this device or this product are seized and confiscated. In addition to, when the apparatus, the device or the product are placed, adapted or applied to a vehicle, this one can be seized and confiscated. Any guilty person of the infringement envisaged with the present article also incurs the sorrow complementary to suspension, for one three years duration at most, of the driving licence , this suspension being able to be limited to control apart from the occupation "

The soldiers of the gendarmerie are extremely sensitive to this problem and act with greatest severity."

So it would seem to me that the word detect means a device that detects like a reciever of some sort which a GPS is because it receives a GPS signal to tell it where it is which in turn tells you where the camera is. It's a fine point that could be argued. However if you have bought a French version and you have the positions already on it then whoever you bought it from can be fined. If this is the case I can't see the French taking every shop that sells a Tom Tom with this on it to court. It's typically French in as much as it says a lot but says nothing.

A interesting point that its well known that automatic garage openers (the ones hard wired in to your car) jam spead cameras yet they are sold here in France, perhaps the cameras work differently than in the UK.

[Salty Sam]

Quillan,

As you say, it's "Typically French"!

The get-out clause in favour of GPS products is that they do not detect nor interfere with the signals emitted  by the radar or laser speed detecting devices, but provide the user with information freely available to the public sector.

Incidentally, the Gendarmerie Maritime also favour the "Sneaky Beaky" approach and utilise their portable devices to "check" the speed of watercraft in speed restricted areas.

"A interesting point that its well known that automatic garage openers (the ones hard wired in to your car) jam spead cameras yet they are sold here in France."

Even better, fit a missile to your car. If it detects a an emitted beam aimed at you - you could programme it to automatically launch![;-)]

[Sunday Driver]

Salty Sam is right.

I don't have a GPS receiver, but my understanding of their operation is that the data is already contained in the device and the satellite signal merely establishes the vehicle position so that the software can display the relevant information relative to that position.  It does not in itself detect the presence of fixed radars as their location is already contained in the receiver's database.  It's the same principle as holding a marked map and saying "Ooh, look, there's a speed camera around this next bend...."

It's the devices which are capable of detecting the signals emitted from mobile radars/lasers and producing a visual/audible warning that are illegal.

In practical terms, if you hear a buzz then you've already been clocked........[:-))]

 

[Quillan]

The camera information is often down loaded as 'points of interest' in to your GPS. What TomTom have done is to do it durning manufacture and of course it can now be out of date.

The thing is in truth that it's a grey area. As you said it's your understanding and personally I suspect you are right but it is your understanding and as can be seen in just this thread there are some others that think the same. The problem is that the quote you gave says nothing, does it include or exclude GPS systems, it simply does not say. To put it another way, fancy a 500 Euro bet on it, I certainly don't. Personally I have not down loaded this information nor have I installed such information in to my GPS simply because I just don't know and I wouldn't do it based on the info you found. It's not a personal thing it's just I have seen how some 'laws' in France change from one department or even Gendarme to another. Unless I see something in absolute black and white specifically about GPS units being used in this way that I can wave in front of a gendarme then I for one will not take the risk

[Sunday Driver]

As far as it being a grey area, the law may not specifically exclude GPS navigators by name, but it doesn't have to.  The key word here is "detect" and "disturb".

A GPS navigator does not detect the presence of a radar.  It does not intercept signals emitted from an active radar. Nor does it interferewith /disturb those signals.  On that basis, it is not capable of being defined as a qualifying apparatus under the code de la route regulation R.413-15. 

Other devices not specifically excluded are Michelin route maps which show fixed camera locations, nor does it exclude my PC (a device which I can use to download camera locations) nor does it exclude my daily copy of Le Courrier de l'Ouest which publishes the mobile camera locations for each day in Deux Sevres (information provided by the Gendarmerie).

Garmin France sell GPS units with downloadable fixed radar camera data.  TomTom France supply their units with pre-loaded data.  I stopped searching after those two because that 500 euros was starting to look like a good investment.......[;-)]

Personally, I could never see the value of spending money to know where highly visible and well advertised fixed speed camera locations are, given that the proliferation of mobile units makes adherance to the speed limit a much better bet....

 

[Quillan]

There are several purpose built GPS based devices that are specifically designed to alert you to fixed speed cameras. I have tried to find these devices on the French web (google.fr) to no avail even when using specific names like Cyclops etc. That in it's self does not indicate if they are legal or not although one part of the code makes it illegal to sell detectors.

I can see exactly where Sunday Driver is comeing from but then you could argue that if the sites are publicised then why can't you have a detector to remind you what the limit it by picking up the signals from existing speed cameras, it does not seem logical.

If we look at the UK for a brief minute the normal camera detectors are shortly to be made illegal according to some of the sites I visited looking for GPS detectors which it will sem will stay legal.

So again back to France I personally am not so sure that Sunday Driver is either right or wrong because I can't see any real proof either way. Perhaps if somebody said that they were so sure they would pay any fines I might get and taxi me around for 3 years whilst on a ban if they were wrong I might change my perspective. So in the meantime I will stick to the speed limits which should keep me (and others) safe and use my GPS for getting me from a to b and back again.

[Bones]

I doubt that TOmTom would bother including the locations if it was illegal, do you?

I would be amazed if a Gendarme looked into your car and exclaimed that your specific model was illegal: it's beyond me why you're worried. Then again I never ever get stopped by the police in france, no matter what I'm driving - so perhaps I'm naive!

[Quillan]

TomTom don't actually give you the list as standard it's actually produced by the same guy who does the UK one and its free. It's just a list of POI's (Points of Interest) that you down load and then set whatever GPS system you have to give you notice, say half a kilometre of that type of POI just like you would a hotel or petrol station.

[Will]

The point is that these devices know the location of speed cameras by their GPS coordinates, they do not detect any signals from the cameras - so will only tell you it is there, not if the device is switched on or not. So they are not illegal.

Devices which actually detect radar signals are illegal, though. I suppose it could be said that they 'pervert the course of justice'. Though its a rather shaky distinction at times.

[Andyphilpott]

Tom Tom take the same view as those who have posted here that there should be no problem but naturally they do not guarantee that. I have suggested to them that they produce a document (in French) which deals with the legal issues if one is stopped by a bold gendarme and they say they will consider that.

To an extent this thread has gone a little off track; I was not bothered about the speed traps themselves - I can avoid those by avoiding speeding - but that having the 'availability' of this on the Tom Tom would make its use (for navigation) illegal. I am personally satisfied from the helpful contributions above that this will not be the case and have since used it in France without any problems.

I have to say that navigating with it really is a doddle!

Andy

[Cassis]

Anything that uses GPS to report the location of fixed radar traps is legal - end of story.  Why would it not be?  The information on the location of fixed sites is all openly available from the government itself.

[Quillan]

Whilst in the doctors (yesterday) I read the French Auto Plus magazine dated April 2006. here was a whole artical on this issue and they are legal in France and I believe you can buy stand alone units that only give positions of the cameras. The artical went on to say that it was expected that over 300 new cameras were going to be installed this year. As we get to the end of the year I wonder if this figure is correct?

The speed camera list is actually created by http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/index.php with input from people who save camera positions and down load then to their website. It is the most up to date with constant updates. The list is free and it's the only list in existance so ensure you don't actually pay for something that is free as many people down load this list then sell it on as their own. They also have a small program you can download in to your GPS to capture and add to your own POI list if you wish.

[Brilec]

If you plan a route with Mappy.fr or Viamichelin, you get the positions of all the fixed radars you pass thrown in. Free.

[Suze01]

I haven't read through the whole thread cos it doesn't float my boat, but I would mention that there was a promotional stand for this product outside Auchan yesterday, so I assume that it is completely legal.