Historic Vehicle Definition

[AnOther]

IT'S OFFICIAL well nearly................

From the current edition of Practical Classics magazine:

"For the purposes of lobbying the EU decision makers the FIVA have announced the universal definition of an 'historic vehicle'"

http://www.fiva.org/E/Downloads/technical%20codemdified%20ENG.pdf

It's due to come into force in 2010 and essentially it says:

At least 30 years old in 2010 (e.g. built on or before Dec. 31st 1980)

Preserved or maintained in an historically correct condition and not used as a means of daily transport.

Fitted with the same or replacement examples of components it was

built with or parts and accessories available within the design life of

the vehicle.

Daily use is yet to be defined

Whist it may seem a bit draconian they point out that:

"Without defining what a classic is and how it's used we can't

'sell' any exemptions for historic vehicles to the politicians. FIVA's

criteria are largely political phrases. We don't want to put off

drivers from using their cars every day or from upgrading them but in

order for legislative exemptions to be made we have to set a benchmark"

[Anton Redman]

Sounds like the thin end of the wedge. Broadly the MOT and CT conditions allow vechiles to pass provided they were in road worthy condition based on the legislation in force on the date they were first registered. Looks like they are heading towards the same limited rules about use if you have a vechile with a CGC.

[Red Dwarf]

I don't like these "definitions" of historic or collectors vehicles.  But I do know where FIVA is coming from, particularly in the UK, where they are up against a strong anti-car culture, not to mention the GREen & ENvy brigade!

Here the FFVE has a similar definition though, recently amended to cars needing to be over 30 years old as at 1.1.2008 to be classified as "collection" vehicles.   Based on some of their statements, I'm hopeful that FFVE think the matter is "clsoed" as far as France is concerned, and the standards are now firmly in place.

Just to clear a common misconception re "collection" vehicles here,  there will be no restrictions to use as from 1.1.2009, and what little restriction that existed before simply required a completion of a couple of forms if travelling beyond the department of registration OR any if it's neighbours.

 

[JMB]

Hello

So what is allowed for instance do we have to revert to radial tyres. My MGB has been fitted with power steering, telescopic rear shocks, a five speed g/box conversion and a kenlow fan plus some interior upgrades and was rebuilt onto a heritage shell. Will this be allowed or will it have to be brought back to standard?

[AnOther]

I don't suppose you will like this JMB and please don't take it personally but as 20 year plus MGB enthusiast, owner, restorer and driver, IMO such completely non standard cars as yours should automatically be disqualified from historic vehicle status, note I carefully avoid the term 'classic' because there is a difference.

Because the heritage shells do not conform to the DVLA definition, e.g.

"The original unmodified chassis or unaltered bodyshell (i.e. body and

chassis as one unit - monocoque); or a new chassis or monocoque

bodyshell of the same specification as the original supported by

evidence from the dealer or manufacturer (e.g. receipt)"

there is even a case to be made for reshelled MGB's to be awarded a Q plate because the truth is that they are none of the above. And this is without mention of the very probable lack other significant original components which are required in the vehicle in order to legitimately retain the number.

You can of course argue that it's your car and under current rules you are free to do what you will with it but as it stands can you honestly claim that is any longer of any historic interest ?

Again IMO, the French (and German) attitude to unofficial mods is pretty sensible when measured against the situation in UK where, with no control whatsoever over 3rd party modifications and aftermarket kits, it's a wild west free for all with the consequent potential for tragic consequences.

[JMB]

I think you will find that the Heritage shell does fall within the DVLA definition, perhaps you should discuss it on the MGOC forum and see what the concensus is. What is your opinion about the rebuilding of a series Landrover onto a new chassis with new or reconditioned parts, or would you advocate welding the old one. I don't think adding the power steering kit to the MGB is a bad thing it certainly improves the steering and the five speed converion is a real improvement on the overdrive. Only 20years with MG's Ernie you are but a callow youth I bought my first MG (a red MGA) in 1964 and have owned MGB roadsters and andGTs although the present one is the first for 22years. I do apreiciate your thoughts on the purist line but you have also got to realise that there are people out there with diferent ideas. In saying that I am looking for a late Healey 3000 which will have to be really original and unmodified. 

[nomoss]

I bought my first MG, a 1932 M type Midget, in 1957. Then a 1930 F type Magna the following year, which I rebuilt, using a similar car as a donor (sacrilege!). I used it until I left England in 1962, but my parents "got rid of it" around 1964 when they moved house, without telling me. It is still around somewhere in UK. The present "owner" cannot actually have title, as I never sold it. But what the hell....

I bought a 1952 TD in Manchester in 1967, which we drove to and used for 2 years in Algeria. I rebuilt it in 1971, and used it occasionally in Spain until my son needed a car. He used it for daily transport in UK from 1985, and sold it, for a ridiculous price, in about 1988. He was almost in tears, but I said it was time for it to go.

The BMC Midget we bought in 1969 didn't really match up to the TD. We soon got rid of it, with no regrets,

I don't think any of those pressed steel efforts are real MG's, so it's not worth bothering whether they are original or not.........[:D]

 

Edit 24/12 - spelling, smiley

[AnOther]

[quote user="nomoss"]I don't think any of those pressed steel efforts are real MG's, so it's not worth bothering whether they are original or not......... [/quote]And I thought my post was controversial [:-))] [:D]

[Anton Redman]

If I buy a Citreon SM it will be taken to the UK and set upon a rolling road.  Any TR5,2000 or 2500 will be switched to BMW fuel injection, If I finally buy a NSU RO80 running a Mazda engine do I have to change then lump or grind off the engine numbers. I buy a pre war Riley, BMW or Alfa if I have to set the head up so it can can run on unleaded it will also be set up so it can run on 90 octane which will mean I can change the crank to 11 to 1 compression.instead of 7.5 to 1

What do your criteria do for an Jeff Uren Savage or Comanche ? or

A Mini Sprint or Broadspeed GT ?

 

[nomoss]

Pics for anyone interested. It's just too much hassle to register the NSU in France - really.

http://usera.imagecave.com/panjang/Proper_cars/

[Anton Redman]

Only seen two in France and both were running the Mazda engine.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Anton Redman"]Only seen two in France and both were running the Mazda engine.[/quote]A car I have a real soft spot for, Anton (the Citroen Mazzer too!)

I can understand the purists' point of view and there is nothing like the genuine article, seen in all its glory as it left the show room decades ago.  But we have to get real, imo.  When does genuine cease to be so?  If you make a new part in a workshop, even if its to original spec', is it original?  And surely, if mods make a car safer, should we not welcome them?  Would the fitting of a modern five point harness (a potential life-saver) be considered a mod' too far?  Who wants cross-ply tyres - anybody?  Each to his own, I reckon.  As long as the Ernies of this world are around, so will be original cars.  Others will update and upgrade theirs.  I see no problem if both continue to exist,so long as the owners declare any mods they have made. 

Would you ban replicas?  Cars based on classics now long dead - Ford GT anybody, BMW Mini? 

[AnOther]

I'm not an out and out purist or an automotive luddite, my own MG is certainly not as it left the factory having several mods such as a (period) Webasto sun roof, Minilite wheels and some handling and performance tweaks, but fundamentally it is still what it was and everything could be undone and returned to original if desired, unlike a car which is effectively brand new and, if one were being unspeakably cruel, owes as much to the kit car fraternity as any other.

Let me just say that I have absolutely no objection to reshelled MG's, re-chassied Land Rovers, kit cars, replicas, or WHY, simply making the point that, IMO, they should take their place within the context of the term 'historic vehicle' and that surely has to be judged on something more substantial than just a 30 year old registration number and a riveted on VIN plate.