Failed CT - Headlamp deflectors

[Andy]

Hi,

I have just had my Berlingo failed it's CT, because we are assured, the headlamp deflectors (we have the plastic shileds that clip over the headlamp with an area blacked ) are no longer suitable and we must change the headlamps to french ones - only €750!!

We had a CT 2 years ago without any problem.

Has the law changed?

Has anyone else come across this? If it is a load of old bull a point towards the relevant french website that gives details would be welcome.

Cheers

Andy

[Bugsy]

Nothings changed Andy, you've just been lucky (if thats the right word) in having a generous tester do your previous tests.

[AnOther]

Can't point you to the actual law although I don't think that anything has actually changed, just a more rigourous enforcement of the existing rules. It's probably no more than the simple requirement to be adjusted so as not to dazzle.

Whilst deflectors have been accepted in the past, and may still scrape through at some CT stations, it's been well reported over the last year or so that there has been a tightening up and that deflectors are no longer acceptable.

It's 'get you wallet out time' but €750 sounds a bit OTT so you might have a look here

http://www.easypieceauto.com/boutique/fiche_produit.cfm?ref=CIT429&type=99&code_lg=lg_fr&num=72 - €134.60

or here

http://pieceonline-pro.fr/index.php/cPath/50_53_710  - €115.19

[dave21478]

A berlingo is probably one of the most common cars on the roads - you should find a pair of used headlights in a breakers for a fraction of the new prices.

[AnOther]

[quote user="dave21478"]A berlingo is probably one of the most common cars on the roads - you should find a pair of used headlights in a breakers for a fraction of the new prices.


[/quote]Went without saying but just in case [;-)]

[Andy]

thanks for the advice and links. I've read elsewhere that it may be possible to adjust the headlights so I start a new thread specifically about headlamp adjustment.

Cheers

Andy

[Will]

More a bodge than an adjustment, I fear, but this might be the sort of thing you had heard about.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Will"]More a bodge than an adjustment, I fear, but this might be the sort of thing you had heard about.

[/quote]

And where that rubbish is posted says it all really. [:)]

.

[Andy]

Just to be clear I found the info here

http://www.citroen-owners-club.co.uk/citroen/index.php?showtopic=2391&pid=13368&mode=threaded&start=#entry13368

Cheers

Andy

[AnOther]

This bodge is only potentially effective for vehicles with cleas glass headlights. If it's patterned then it's a waste of time and possibly 2 good bulbs.

[Will]

Quite so, BB and ANO. Hence the use of the term 'bodge'. But if all else fails there is little to lose (apart perhaps from a couple of bulbs).

The Citroen Owners' link refers to normal adjustment of headlights, not changing between different dip patterns. Note that the first reply confirms this: "The beam pattern is the same as any other car, i.e. Higher on the N/S then flat towards the O/S". Though that of course applies only to RHD vehicles. For driving on the other side of the road the beam pattern is reversed. Which is why new light units are normally needed.

[PaulT]

When we visit France I have deflectors specifically for my car that clip on and therefore shade exactly the right part.

I find that the reduced lighting pattern makes driving in the dark harder.

If I still had the Disco then I would have bought LHD headlamps and fitted them when visiting France (5 minutes and both would have been changed). Major strip down on the car I now have.

If you are going to live permanently in another country that drives on the other side of the road then, from a safety point of view as well as from an integration point of view cars etc should be made as compliant as possible.

Paul

[AnOther]

[quote user="P2"]I find that the reduced lighting pattern makes driving in the dark harder.[/quote]Exactly, it's trying enough driving on French roads at night with no markings or cats eyes, and with a far higher risk of encountering wild animals, without further handicapping yourself with inferior and/or wrongly focussed headlights.

[Andy]

Point taken now - thanks all. It just took a while to get over the shock of the original bill!

I will order a pair of Valeo which even with delivery will be less than just one of the lights quoted (Hellas probably).

Do you think this will be easy to change myself? I've no Haynes manual for reference but I have time to get one from Uk if necessary.

Actually I might go back to the garage and ask him to quote for supply and fit of the Valeos he can then make sure they are adjusted correctly before the CT.

Thanks again

Andy

[nounours]

Try eBay France, look at item 400101552009 for a start 57€  each.  Fitting is not hard, just take note of how you take the old ones out.

[Chancer]

I am happy to let you all continue in your misinformed ignorance but for those with an open mind read on.

The patterns on headlights as you call them do not make them into prisms they are there to show the lines for masking, the the glass would be triangular in section to act as a prism.

I first found the constructional differences between RHH and LHD headlights by experimentation and dogged determination not from a forum. I had one of the first Ford Galaxies that had come off the common Ford/VW/Seat production line at Automotive Europa in Belgium, when I put it in for its first MOT we found that it had been fitted with LHD headlights so I bought a new pair from Ford.

When I looked  I could find no difference other than the part number, the lines for masking being reversed, an E number being different (E3 or E4 IIRC) and the sick feeling that I had been had, more carefull inspection found that there was a difference in the angular location of the H4 bulbs so I started my first experiment with my pal who runs an MOT centre who was equally interested.

I fitted and adjusted the new RHD offside light and tested both the lights on an MOT  beam tester the dipped beam patterns were identical but symettrically reversed as one would expect, I then put in a bulb that I had modified (to change its angular alignment) to the nearside light and it gave a dipped beam identical to the newly purchased RHD one, I repackaged and returned the new lights to Ford.

I did some research and found that Fiats and Lancias (before they withdrew from the UK market) had bulbholders that could be rotated to change the dip pattern from LHD to RHD and the handbooks advised how to do this for continental touring.

In the early days I was modifying the actual bulb which was fiddly and was indeed a bodge giving less than perfect results, I was going to make some tooling when I read about cutting the lugs off which seemed a much better idea as it didnt involve breaking out spot welds and refixing the bayonet flange with araldite as I had been doing.

Another advantage for those that doubt the veracity of this method is that you can actually see the dipped beam pattern change from left to right on your garage door or on a CT/MOT test machine as you rotate the bulbs, I did this with the tester of my local CT centre as he was sceptical and he can attest that there was no degradation of either dipped or main beam, the dipped beam cut off remaining flat across its width, which is all CT requires (and indeed all that new generation of lamps can do) but with the benefit of the (identical) kick up to the right not the left.

My current car does indeed have clear plastic headlight glasses but none of the previous cobayes had.

So speaking with the benefit of experience I do not consider it a bodge and I really dont understand why I have been flamed in the past for passing on the knowledge, to me that is what forums are for but perhaps people feel frustrated after having parted with hudreds of Euros for headlights they didnt need, I can understand that as I felt the same but put it to positive use.

As an aside on the LD lines website there is a sort of Q & A forum, someone posted seeking redress against tha French garage that billed them several hundred Euros to replace their RHD headlights with new LHD ones, the problem was when tested at the CT centre they had fitted new RHD ones as they had ordered the parts using the vehicles VIN number [:-))] needless to say they were just shrugging their shoulders and saying that the computer had ordered the correct parts for that vehicle.

 

[Andy]

John,

I've replied to your PM as well.

I will give your method a try just as soon as I can get the car in the garage - too damn cold to do outdoors right now.

Thanks

Andy

[Chancer]

I have replied to your questions, bonne chance with the lights [:D]

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Chancer"]

I am happy to let you all continue in your misinformed ignorance but for those with an open mind read on.

The patterns on headlights as you call them do not make them into prisms they are there to show the lines for masking, the the glass would be triangular in section to act as a prism.

[/quote]

Well, that really is amazing [:D] all those little triangular shaped lines (check on the inside of the glass) are only their to show the lines for masking. [:D]

Sorry Chancer, but you are soooooooo wrong about that. They define the light pattern. You only have to look, for example, at a left-hand drive and right-hand drive conventional 7" round headlight. The reflector and bulb location in both units, are identical, with the only difference being found in the pattern on the glass.

This is a photo of the 'french' headlight on my Jeep

[IMG]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/Bugbear2/P1000165.jpg[/IMG]

And this is a photo of the 'english' headlight that I removed when we came to france.

The triangular patterns that define the beam shape can clearly be seen along with the faint lines provided for deflector positioning.

[IMG]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/Bugbear2/P1000164.jpg[/IMG]

Gary. [:D] as always.

.

[Chancer]

Duplicate posting

[Chancer]

Look very carefully at the angular location of the sockets for the bayonet lugs on the bulb, you will find that the top one is not in the vertical position but rotated a couple of degrees clockwise on one type and the same amount anti-clockwise on the other type, its not at all obvious to the naked eye and especially once fitted to your vehicle.

As for the glass changing the headlight aim well I am happy to agree to disagree but I do speak from a position of practical experience of testing on both MOT and CT machines not to mention night driving with converted lights.

I do wholeheartedly agree with how dangerous these stick on beam deflectors are, a friend who is very fussy, particular and old before his time came over in his Omega (I think), due to the problems at the time with getting fuel out of hours with a UK debit card and the fact that my bank had blocked my carte bleu we had to swop cars for him and the family to return to the camp site, when I drove his car at night the light output was pathetic with just two little pools of light on the road ahead on both beam and dipped as if from a torch with flat batteries.

Replacement Cibies are not cheap as I know to my cost, I had to search around to get one for my 1980's Caterham (they were an option at the time) when I finally got one it cost an arm and a leg and you guessed it, it turned out to be a LHD one [:'(], once again I successfuly converted it.

The ones that caused me the most greif were some tiny ones that I found really for another Caterham in a French agricultural supplier they had yellow lense and what I assumed to be LHD dip pattern but when I modified and fitted them and we put it on the beam tester on dipped beam they cut the light from the bottom not the top, they had a flat cut off neither a kick down or a kick up, it turned out that they were intended to be hung upside down [:D]

[NewinFrance]

Personal experience with a Suzuki Grand Vitara (clear headlamp glasses, multi-faceted reflectors):

Using UK lights with a 'dip-left' pattern and the bulbs rotated as suggested and using the lights set lower than normal gave a 'dip-right' pattern  that worked to a degree. Used as a temporary alternative to black tape (and better than that) it was usable and resulted in no flashes from oncoming traffic but gave insufficient range for permanent use. Submitted for CT as new headlamps had not arrived in time and failed because it was impossible to get sufficiently accurate cut-off at top of beam.

New Valeo LHD lights fitted (very simple half-hour job) and CT centre happy to adjust at the free re-visit - passed easily.

To sum up:

1. Rotating bulbs was a useful short-term bodge, better than tape but not a long-term solution.

2. Valeo lights are indistinguishable from dealer parts and a fraction of the price. (Mine were not listed by Valeo, but were obtainable in Poland. Please don't ask why because I have no idea!) 

... just my experience

 

[Théière]

Glad your sorted Newinfrance, but look at the argument you left in your tail lights [:D]

I'm with Bugbear, the lens of headlamps is based on a Fresnel principle and not a guide of where to put your sticky tape (wind up for sure) [;-)]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlamp

[krusty]

Interesting that wiki post , this snippet seams to confirm what Chancer has told us.

"The traditional European method of achieving low and high beam from a single bulb involves two filaments along the axis of the reflector. The high beam filament is on the focal point, while the low beam filament is approximately 1 cm forward of the focal point and 3 mm above the axis. Below the low beam filament is a cup-shaped shield (called a "Graves Shield") spanning an arc of 165°. When the low beam filament is illuminated, this shield casts a shadow on the corresponding lower area of the reflector, blocking downward light rays that would otherwise strike the reflector and be cast above the horizon. The bulb is rotated (or "clocked") within the headlamp to position the Graves Shield so as to allow light to strike a 15° wedge of the lower half of the reflector. This is used to create the upsweep or upstep characteristic of ECE low beam light distributions. The bulb's rotative position within the reflector depends on the type of beam pattern to be produced and the traffic directionality of the market for which the headlamp is intended."

But I agree Garys photo evidence  clearly shows the "prisms" built into the glass.

[bigears]

hi

best solution is to do what has already been suggested. and get a cheap set of used headlights.