Siret number and Cheque Emploi

[Pumpkin]

I can't quite seem to get straight in my head whether you need a siret number if you are doing occasional work or whether you can just be paid by the cheque d'emploi or whether you need both??

Does it differ on the type of work you are doing? If you are doing self employed gardening must you have a siret number? If so how do you get one please???

 

[Eslier]

I think you will find, in simplistic terms, and I am sure others will correct me if I'm wrong, that:

If you go to someone's house to do some gardening and only use the owners equipment, then the owner of the house can pay you by cheque d'emploi. If you take any of your own equipment with you to use then you must be a registered business, have insurance and be paying all your social charges etc.

[Teamedup]

No you don't need to register as a business to use the cheque emploi scheme. I know people who do this and they aren't registered as businesses.

[Pumpkin]

Thanks but I am still a little confused! If you want to be a self employed gardener do you need to register as a business? If so how do you do this? Is this different to a siret number? Basically what I need to know is if you want to offer your services as a gardener do you need to register as a business, obtain a siret number (whatever that is!) and asked to be paid by cheque emploi. If you are paid by cheque emploi does anyone know how this works? As I understand they pay you whatever rate you decide an hour and then thay have to pay your social security contributions. Is this correct or am I really confused now?!

[Ty Korrigan]

Hello, Pumpkin...before I go back to work I shall try to explain this to you...

First there is no future in cheque employee if you wish to make a living from it. It is for casual labour only... So forget it now and thus save my fingers...

There are two catagories of 'gardener' here...

The first is 'Paysagiste' and are classed as Artisans, these are 'generally' bigger outfits that take on landscaping works and light construction works.

The second are 'Entretien Espaces Verts' and these are 'commercants' who look after green spaces, garden maintenance etc... basically more serviced based.

The latter pay less in social charges as it is deemed less high risk work.

Talk to your Chambre de Commerce. If you wish to be the latter and the Chambre de metiers if you wish to be the former. A SIRET is the number given upon registration of your business.

If you are registered as unemployed for the previous 6 months before registration there may be incentives available such as partial exhonoration of social charges for the first year.

If you don't register and are caught by the authorities you will be banged up and your home torn apart for information about your finances.

Good luck!

 

 

[Russethouse]

TK all I can say is that my French friends, who have a French gardener, pay him through cheque emploi. He has lots of work (in fact he only 'took them on' as they were friends of friends) and AFAIK he is always paid this way.

No idea about the whys and wherefores, but I know my friends consider its quite 'normal'

[Pumpkin]

Thanks for that.The picture is becoming clearer!

So as I understand if I want to be a casual gardener only and not be in it for that much income I could use the cheque emploi without registering as a business.

However if it is to be run with the general intention of making money it needs to be registered as a business and I can do this at the Chambre de Commerce which in turn means I will obtain the siret number.

If you are then employed by someone they pay you however rather than with a cheque emploi and then you somehow pay your social charges and tax. Out of interest how do you pay your social charges if you are a registered business???

[Ty Korrigan]

Cheque employee has its place but you just try and persuade loads of customers to sign up for it especialy the Brits, half of whoam want to try to avoid anything to do with paper and tax!

It involves the customer making a tax declaration at the end of the year, so if your client dabbles in  occasional gite letting for instance they may just prefer you to be paid cash just to avoid the authorities questioning them about income...

The social charges amount to 33% approx of your wage and the employer is charged for your social charges at the end of the year.

So, you charge 15euros but you get paid 10euros and the employer pays to the state 5euros...

Small entreprises pay social charges by declaring and justifying turnover/profit much as in the U.K.

If you really want to work, you may find cheque employee very limiting as it relies on the client supplying the tools and you are limited to 8 hours per client per week. 95% of my clients are absent and certainly don't have the specialised tools required to do half the garden work. If they do have tools they are very often totaly rubbish for the task in hand.

I know this because I have been there and believe me its a bloody awkward road to go down... Rather be in business any day.

You can be registered and work only a very little and not pay a great deal in social charges. Just ask the C.C.I or the Mutual Society Agricol to whoam you would pay your social charges too.

Whatever you do, don't work on the black.

[arthur smith]

this topic sems to come up regulary on all forums, and the more i read the more confusing it becomes.

we intend to permanently relocate at the end of next year, when our house will hopefully be finished, but are both too young to retire. i am a floor and wall tiler who wants to earn a living when we move, and pay my dues, but;

is there a way to start up and wait to see how much you are earning before paying tax ?

i have read so much "advice" that my head spins, one of the reasons i want to relocate!

i have no problem with paying my way, and want to work legitimately, but there are so many scare mongers out there it makes me wonder if;

a. it is that difficult,

or b. a lot of british artisans are just being protectionist

if someone wants to embrace the life, integrate, and pay what they owe, can it be as difficult as some of the contributors say it is ?

 

[Ty Korrigan]

Arthur...

If you go to the Chambre de Metiers/Chambre de Commerce you will find they have many facts and figures so you can research any potential on paper before hand.

My first told me about the number of Anglais in the region and also the number of maison secondare. I put out some publicity before hand (illegal but unlikely to get you into trouble) to judge the market potential.

Being in contact with your Chambre de Commerce/Metiers is a valuable tool and should be exploited to the full.

Generally you may find that persons with skills are sought after and that the opportunites are great.

[Mikew]

This is what you can/cannot do:

Vous pouvez ainsi déclarer votre salarié par Chèque emploi service pour :

Les travaux de ménage à votre domicile. (housework)

Le repassage et l'entretien de votre linge.(Washing and ironing)

Les petits travaux d'entretien de votre jardin.(light gardening)

La garde d'un malade si des soins spécialisés ne sont pas nécessaires.(looking after an ill person if no special care needed)

L'aide scolaire pour vos enfants.(Helping schoolchildren)

L'aide à domicile pour des personnes âgées ou handicapées (à l'exception des soins).Home help, but not carer for the aged)

La garde de vos enfants à votre domicile (en dehors du champ de l'AGED, AFEAMA et PAJE). (Child sitting)

Vous ne pouvez pas déclarer votre salarié par Chèque emploi service pour :

Des tâches qui ne sont pas "familiales", mais liées à votre activité professionnelle (secrétariat…).(no non-family activities i.e. with your profession)

La garde de vos enfants à votre domicile si vous bénéficiez de l'Aged ou de la PAJE.(no child sitting if yiu receive certain benefits)

Une employée au pair.(not to pay an au-pair)

Les travaux liés à la réfection ou à l'aménagement de locaux d'habitation.(no work on the house itself)

L'installation ou le dépannage d'équipements domestiques.(no installation or repair of domestic equipment)

Des travaux ménagers en dehors de votre résidence (exemple : dans les parties communes de votre co-propriété).(no housework outside your residence, i.e. in shared areas of flats etc)

(E&OE)

This is the address of the site to read all about it:

http://www.ces.urssaf.fr/cesweb/home.jsp

A payment of 100€ for 10 hours work paying your employee 10€ per hour will cost you, the employer, just over 83€ in cotisations, making each hour 18,30€ of which the tax man will give a bit back if you qualify!

The hours limit has increased recently, to encourage enterprise! Our 'lady who does' works a small number of hours, each, for numerous employers so the system works for her, but I don't think anyone will get rich using the system, but you will be legal!

Mike

[Pumpkin]

Thankyou. The cloud or as in the case of this morning the fog is beginning to clear!

From what I can see as I have all my own  very nice tools and do wish to earn a reasonable living I need to register as a small business.

My french is reasonable. At the Chambre de Commerce is it all fairly straight forward or am I going to be blasted with alot of technical french!

Do you have to go armed with any paperwork or have any qualifications and does it cost you to register?

Can anyone recommend any good books on running a small business here?

Thanks to anyone who spends the time trying to explain all this to me, it is appreciated.

 

[Will]

Ty K - as far as I know it's perfectly legal to advertise or tout for business before you register - just put 'Siret en cours' on the paperwork. OK, the fact you may not have actually applied might be stretching the point, but if you have started filling in a form but not sent it off then its still 'en cours' in my book .

Pumpkin - if tools are involved in your work, you probably need to go to the Chambre de Metiers rather than Chambre de Commerce. As far as books are concerned most of the 'Living in France' titles for sale on this site include setting up a business, the only English-language one specific to that subject that I know of is published by the French Chambre de Commerce in London. Otherwise, www.apce.com is useful (some pages available in English).

[Ty Korrigan]

Hello, To be an entretien espaces verts requires no qualifications or certificates whereas to be a paysagiste you need to justify yourself on paper. The Chambre de Commerce runs courses in 'basic business'. These are either 'nearly free' or up to 400euros. Worth attending as you can learn allsorts. If you have a fluent friend with time on their hands then get them to come along as the pace of the class and level of language can be wearing...

It is now coming up to winter... So why not....? sign on as unemployed in order to qualify for the reduction in you first years social charges... You could do the course over this period and prepare all your pub and network ready for the spring launch 2006.

A little bit of economic advice... don't buy a 'garden tractor' to use for your work unless you have several regular customers very large areas of grass each over 3000m2It is more economic and better to drop your rate whilst you have space in your agenda than to invest in a minority use tool.

Try 'Starting your own gardening business' by Paul Power ISBN1-85703-861-4 from Amazon books

 

 

[Pumpkin]

Thanks for all of that. At the moment I am renovating my house so had not really considered that I might be eligible to register as unemployed. What does this involve and does it not seem cheeky under the circumstances.

The problem being as with all renovations the budget has been blown and needs to be replenished!

I think I need to visit the Chambre de Commerce first and see where we go from there. I want to do everything above board etc so it seems like the place to go.

Don't want anyone tearing my house apart for financial info! already had the gendarmes around after an industrial accident!

Thanks for the advice re the mower. I have already purchased a tractor mower as I needed one for my own land.

[Ty Korrigan]

Hello, 'signing on' costs you nowt and is totally above board as you can claim nowt. You just become a statistic and must sign on every month, this can be done by internet.

How where the Gendarmes...?

 

 

 

[catgirl]

hello,can you use the cheque system for feeding someones cats while they are away? i thought you could but it was not on the list............please say yes somebody!! 

[Pumpkin]

Signing on sounds ok, never done it in my life before and I'm up for trying anything new!

The gendarmes were fine. I'd only just recovered from the shock of the builder falling off the scaffold, the pompiers arriving and then the gendarmes arrived. Fortunately the builder was working legitimately and not on the black but it re-iterates to you if you have an accident and are working on the black you'd have more than your injuries to worry about!

As for the cats, haven't a clue but if you read the earlier replies from what I can gather it's ok as long as it is on a casual basis.

[Mikew]

Cats - feed looks ok, but no worm pills, that's professional!!!

[catgirl]

mikew-thankyou,i feel a bit a less panicky now as i have already put notices up in the vets etc!! 

[Teamedup]

Pumpkin, signing on is one thing, them actually giving you anything is quite another though. It is based on how long you have worked and your salary and having the right forms.

[Ty Korrigan]

Actually, you big know all....  Teameup you are perfectly correct and when I went through this it was 'difficult' to say the least...

I had worked 6 months in the previous 2 years back in the 53rd state so qualified for the reduction and other assistance.

Take my advice with a pinch of Sodium chlorate if I were you...

Sorry, I don't wish to mislead any-one...

 

 

 

 

[Teamedup]

I only know 'some' not 'all' TK.

And in this case I would prefer to have remained in ignorance pf the system.  We go through hell everytime my son's contracts finish and he applies.

[Pumpkin]

I wouldn't have signed on expecting to get anything! Never had a bean in the UK and would certainly not expect anything from a country which I have never financially contributed towards! I have not come to France with the intention of having anything which I have not rightfully earned.

By the sounds of it it is a complicated procedure anyway and I think I have enough to think about trying to register a business.

Will be off to the Chambre de Commerce later in the week.

[Ty Korrigan]

Ask about dossier ACCRE...write it down... it is the exhonouration from social charges... ask about the conditions required etc at the C.C.I...

When I eventually registered, all the registration documents where completed at the C.C.I. There was a 100euro charge for this...

Then the man from the M.S.A came out for a home visit to sort out the social charge side of things.

The Assurance man from the A.G.F came out also to sort out professional assurances then called back a week later with work for me...

I haven't stopped since and am looking forward to winter!