Is it really that difficult to work for yourself ??

[les Favets]

My son in law wishes to commence working for people general maintenance and decorating of properties.  BUT !!!  When looking into the possibility through talking with other people, he is being informed that he will have to pay out large sums of money in tax, each month before he even earns any.  He wants to keep the work above board but can't see how he is able to pay out sums before earning any income.  Is there a way of establishing if there is a more viable approach.

Regards Les Favets

[Nick Trollope]

Nope, that is how it works here. Which is why not many (compared to the UK) are self-employed. If you can find a legal way around it, you will never need to work...

[Val_2]

It dosn't even pay to make a profit here either because all your charges are increased hugely. Our monthly pension payment has gone up by 600€ since last year and the six monthly CPAM payments by over 150%. You are expected to pay all this whether or not your circumstances have changed or you have less money coming in. The french government strangles small and self employed businesses here whatever nationality you are.

[Ty Korrigan]

It is because of this that I can see me closing in by my third year and finding work permanently in a factory...

I woke last night in a sweat worrying about how many clients I would need to make even the SMIC...

Prehaps even giving up at the end of this year if my target client base is not reached.

48% plus of my profit in social charges is just too much to get my head around...

Of course I have the January blues at the moment.... maybe I shall feel more optimistic by April....

[Will]

Your son in law has been misinformed. Tax in France is not paid in advance, it is, in general, paid in the following year (some may disagree with that simplification because once in the system you may pay a bit on account towards the following year's bills). His informant has got confused with the cotisations for health, social security, pensions etc. These are paid normally in quarterly instalments, and new fully-registered businesses are assessed an an average rate of earnings, so it is quite possible that the first instalment or two may be due before any money has come in and/or may be for considerably more than has actually been earned.

So Nick and Val are perfectly correct with their comments.

Your son in law would do well to look into the 'cheque emploi TPE' scheme, which has been discussed many times here and details of which can be found via URSSAF. It may or may not be applicable to his proposed business - if it is, it will ease the start-up pains considerably.

[Ty Korrigan]

I tried to start up using cheque employee but I found that many Brits thought it a bother or didn't want to get involved with 'the system' and so prefered for me to work on the black which as far I  was concerned was a dangerous precident. ''How on earth would I get people to pay me the going rate for future work if it was known that I had been charging far less on the black...?''

Even now there are several gite owners who pay me sterling as this is how their 'discreet' business works, on a sterling only basis...

I pay my cotisations on a monthly basis regardless of whether I am earning or not at the moment.

[les Favets]

Thank you all for your comments, since placing the posting, I have received information relating to a public meeting, details as follows:

The Public Revenue Office of the Allier department (03) ( Tresorerie Generale de l'Allier ) is organising an information meeting for the benefit of foreign nationals living in the area.

Various issues will be tackled, including how to fill in one's income tax return, how to pay one's taxes, local taxation... etc ...

The meeting is to take place some date in May which I have yet to establish but it may be an ideal opportunity for my son in law to question the situation re self employed working.

Will keep you posted or even if some of you wish to attend the meeting, please let me know

Regards les Favets

 

[Bob]

Snap, I also wanna ask the same question. I am... a supposed

to be... semi retired Bricklayer/mason/builder and my wife is an accountant or

was in the UK till

last year when we came to France.

 We would both like to set up a small business of some sort, but

not necessarily related to our former UK

occupations. We have made some tentative (we remembered  the can of worms story) enquiries and it

seems that setting up even a small modest side line is a nightmare of

bureaucratic form filling, and incurring social charges that almost amount to

the national debt of a small African country. The monies levied and demanded

are, even before the proposed business is earning a sou ...if it weren’t true..

Laughable.

 There must be thousands, nay possibly tens of thousands of

folks in France

who would be a positive asset to France

if they were allowed to without difficulty set up honest businesses or simply

gain employment. I have read somewhere that the powers that be, are making or

going to make employment, self employment, and starting a small business less

arduous.  Can anyone enlighten me on the

latest legislation please?

 I hear that due to French bureaucracy, many skilled and

unskilled operatives are driven to working on the black. Black working is not

only highly illegal it  must also cost France

millions. I'm not naive enough to think that tax dodgers/evaders/fiddlers will

suddenly develop social consciences and disappear overnight (France

doesn't have a monopoly on red tape) but many potentially productive Brit immigrants

are reluctantly returning to the UK

because of lack of work opportunities. There are of course many other reasons

why immigrants return to their native countries, but their stories are better

recounted elsewhere and are not part of this brief here.

I have written a similar artical on other forums and of course I realise that some of my comments are generalised and I'm sure the PC brigade and nit pickers will be queuing up to shoot me down.Unfortunatly the above is how France is  seen to be by many ex pats. Most of us  came here for  a glass or two of inexpensive wine,  a tad more sunshine than the UK has to offer. and a fairly stressless lifestyle. Utopian employment and rewards most of us are not demanding or expecting. I'm of an age group where my skills or person are not so in demand. but what about all those younger potentially productives going to waste?

[Will]

Bob - What you say is very true, and relevant, but no significant changes are likely without a massive shift in culture and mindset at government and senior civil service level - unlikely as the fonctionnaires benefit heavily from the current system geared to protect employees and deter entrepeneurs (remember the old joke that there is no word in the French language for entrepreneur). I agree that it is ridiculous - France's sky-high unemployment could be eased at a stroke if it was made viable to start a small business and employ others.

"I have read somewhere that the powers that be, are making or going to make employment, self employment, and starting a small business less arduous." I think you are probably thinking of the extensions to the cheque d'emploi system, which goes some way to easing the situation, but is still very restricted in its application and complicated to understand.

Significantly, as we are often reminded, there is an equal, or even slightly greater, number of French people living in Britain compared with the number of British in France. The big difference (a generalisation, I know, but true) is that the British are in France for the lifestyle, being mostly retired or semi-retired, whereas the French go to Britain for its work opportunities. France loses out twice over; the British residents don't, in general, contribute much to the French economy, while the workers it loses to Britain are mostly those of fairly high calibre who could benefit their homeland in many respects. Just as the French young seeking work are forced to migrate from the countryside to the cities, the city workers are driven overseas by France's punitive systems. No wonder France does not enjoy a thriving economy and its health and social security system is swallowing money at an alarming rate.

The other side of this situation, as you so rightly point out, is the black economy. Here the Brits, and French, doing small jobs for cash in hand, pale into insignificance alongside the gangs of illegal North Africans, Eastern Europeans, Chinese etc on big building projects.

[Bob]

Many thanks Will for your very lucid reply. You also brought up a couple of revalent ponts that I have never considered. I didn't want to get on the campaigne trail with this, but I do feel very strongly about any sort of wasteage. I have often remonstrated with the young aand talented for wasting their God given aptitudes. My own now grownup kids have felt my wrath on such matters,and it sincerly hurts me to watch young French-n-Brit  kids  with no prospects due to mainly to outdated, and  zenaphobic attitudes by those in power. France is a great country with much to offer the world. But it doesn't seem to realise that the world is now a relativly small place and that no man is an island. watch this space!

[Val_2]

Nearly eleven years later we recently discussed in our household that if we had realised how unfriendly the system is here towards the artisan trying to earn an honest crust and not having nearly euro taken away in heavy charges,we would never have set up again here regardless of the quality of life etc. Its not lack of work that is the problem, it is the system and all those fonctionnaires who take,take and take and don't understand the difficulties it causes. Many many round here now are very disillusioned with trying to work legally for practically nothing and not just in the building trade either. Still, from what I hear its not a lot better in the UK now with bureaucracy steadily creeping in and starting to strangle the self employed. People say farmers are rich, you should see how many round here are still working in the mid seventies just to earn a few euros against their very pitiful state pension and the number that ask for financial help from the council too.

[Logan]

[quote user="Val_2"]Nearly eleven years later we recently discussed in our household that if we had realised how unfriendly the system is here towards the artisan trying to earn an honest crust and not having nearly euro taken away in heavy charges,we would never have set up again here regardless of the quality of life etc. Its not lack of work that is the problem, it is the system and all those fonctionnaires who take,take and take and don't understand the difficulties it causes. Many many round here now are very disillusioned with trying to work legally for practically nothing and not just in the building trade either. Still, from what I hear its not a lot better in the UK now with bureaucracy steadily creeping in and starting to strangle the self employed. People say farmers are rich, you should see how many round here are still working in the mid seventies just to earn a few euros against their very pitiful state pension and the number that ask for financial help from the council too.[/quote]

It is not correct to say that UK bureaucracy is starting to strangle the self employed. Compared with France the UK is truely liberating. Enterprise is encouraged, help and support is available from both private and public source. You just have to spend time and effort seeking it out. It's amazing easy to get started in a small business enterprise, there are none of the hoops to jump through as in France. None of the justifications, obstacles and restrictive practices of France. Your earnings are not gobbled up by the state. There is the freedom choice in how you spend your money and real opportunity to anyone who is willing to work hard.  I believe France is a dying country without a future. Years of hopeless politics, dominance of trade unions and vested interest groups who only have their narrow self concerns at heart. A lack of realism by the French population who generally live still in a bubble, still believing the rest of the world is out of step but them. The French simply don't understand business, competiton or enterprise. The fable of the King ordering back the tide comes to mind. The European social model of society belongs back in the post war boom years when global competition was dramatically less. The threat from the industrialisation of China and India should finally kill off any illusions that the social model in Europe can still function.

I believe France will not change significantly in the coming years. They will tinker round the edges but duck the real issues because of the threat of dramatic social unrest and the very real menace from the extreme right. It is for all these reasons I gave up the struggle after twenty years trying to make a living in France. I was standing still at best but mostly slipping backwards. France is a great country to retire to if you are financially secure. Otherwise don't bother unless you want to face years of strife and tussle.

The answer to the question asked in the post is a very loud YES, not difficult, bloody nigh impossible!

 

[Miki]

[quote user="Bob"]Many thanks Will for your very lucid reply. You also

brought up a couple of revalent ponts that I have never considered. I

didn't want to get on the campaigne trail with this, but I do feel very

strongly about any sort of wasteage. I have often remonstrated with the

young aand talented for wasting their God given aptitudes. My own now

grownup kids have felt my wrath on such matters,and it sincerly hurts

me to watch young French-n-Brit  kids  with no prospects due

to mainly to outdated, and  zenaphobic attitudes by those in

power. France is a great country with much to offer the world. But it

doesn't seem to realise that the world is now a relativly small place

and that no man is an island. watch this space!

[/quote]

Wow Bob,  I think you deserve the prize for the post with the most

clichés, bravo, I suspect you will be over the moon to collect the

award [:D]

Getting back to the problems the French have to face if they do, as

many folks want to see happen, lessen the tax load or rather the

cotisation burden on all us "enterprises" and do even more to let

newcomers enter the self employed trail.

When I have spoken with anyone who has taken an acedemic interest in

this (I listen with suitable poses and facial expressions to convince

the person I am still with them) they ask me "how can it be done" ?

Not such a silly comment. Add up all the cotisations that are taken for

the health and retirement alone, just from us self employed all over France.

Have you noticed those diagrams doing the rounds (very popular last

year) showing just how many will have to work to support those in

retirement, it's not that long to go, until it will be a one for one

situation ! As for the health, well anyone with half an inkling about it, will know

just how large the hole now is in the system.

So, the point made is, who will pay for all those large allowances to

be made ? How will Artisans, laready formulated, some even who employ

others, feel when they are still paying high charges and the new

tradesmen are paying zilch (ish)? Take it another stage and then let

them also give those of us already in the system, who would also like the

strangulation of  huge cotisations reduced, a nice big remboursement annually, thereby making it even more

neccessary to tax elsewhere !

We are in a terrible quandary, we want reduced cotisations and new

artisans want a few years of low cotisations (in existence in some

various ways now) but if it is given to us, who will then get the burden of

taxation to cover for the loss ? I want the reductions but I

also fear the consequences

Like anything in life, we will get nothing for nowt. Once a tax system

is in place and has been used for many years, it becomes firmly

entrenched, as more or less a way of life, lowering it, will cause mass

upheaval unless the money lost is gained elsewehere, there lies the

problem.

Anyone know the answer ? Successive governements here, say they know

the answer and all back off once they are in power, they know just how

impossible it will be. Robbing Peter will see massive actions and

paying Paul will only cause problems with Mary.....................No

one will ever be happy at the outcome, will they ?

I will say though, I think employers should have serious help from the

govt to give the kids looking for work a leg up. The pyschological

effect of being without work since leaving school is dreadful. Whilst I

can't condone the latest round of fireworks late last year,  only a fool would not comprehend as to why it happened and will happen again.

Off to pay another bill, the 0's add up don't they.

[Val_2]

Logan. I only mentioned about the UK because nearly everyone we come into contact with or speak with over there and my family are in the trade also, seem to be bemoaning the fact its becoming harder and harder with more and more paperwork creeping in for the self employed person. My brother even said something to the fact that accounts have to be submitted to the IR monthly soon from what he had been told, who knows?We had a dam good living over there before but came here for our kid's sakes more than anything. Anyway you yourself have had a taster here too and found it wasn't the easy life either and at least you did something about it when you could, a lot of us have burned our bridges so to speak and are here now to make the best of a bad job where we can. I still love the country and the folks and will probably have french grandchildren one day and feel after all these years we have to go on or it would have been for nothing.

[Logan]

I empathise with you Val2. Peoples impressions are subjective. What is a mole hill of a problem in UK becomes a mountain in France. It depends on what experience folks have had of both countries. I speak as someone in that position and with hand on heart UK is a place for work and businesss. France is a place to eat well, sleep and bring up children with  values lost elsewhere. You have to make sacrifices depending on your point of view. It's called choice.

The French system needs to be opened up to the private services sector and the state rolled back. Allowing people choice leads to inventiveness, incentive and a reduction in the tax burden. Freemarket economics have long won the arguments elsewhere. France remains the last bastion of the decayed principal that Governments are better at running things than markets.

[Bob]

Hiya Mika

Cotisations were not what I was really concerned with. I'm no accountant only a

simple workman and will accept that dues are an inevitable part of life.

I'm just bemoaning the fact that to pay cotisations one must first get into the

employment system. I understand the catch 22 predicament of any government trying to

lessen the tax burden. They will be dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. But in

simple terms we all have a budget to live to, unfortunately most of us live

according to our means plus some. My own working life and earnings have been a

see saw roundabout  and when I was earning big bucks I/we tended to live

to the extent of those earnings, consequently when things wern't quite so rosy

it was difficult but not impossible to  reduce the current life style. But

at least I could always get a better job and opportunities were there if I had

the wherewithall or energy to take advantage.

If  I was a young man with a family in todays France,

I would have serious concerns for the future. Because I was the class dunce at school it was deemed by my parents that an apprenticship in the building industry was gonna be my lot. Not many kids have that sort of choice today in France or the UK do they?

I'm not very politically aware and only  understand some of the 

problems that face any French Government.  But I am..I think.. blessed

with a tad of common sense, and that sense tells me that to kickstart any

economy ‘Let's get 'em all working. Please let me be able to perhaps legally

sell a few vegetables, eggs or small livestock from my own garden gate, allow me

to set up a simple market stall or open a shop without a mass of autocracy and

a mountain of paper to wade thro first'.

 Maggie Thatcher (not my Fav person) understood basic home economics, and ruthlessly applied that logic to cure the UK of some of it's ills. Perhaps a touch of Thatcherism would make the French economists sit up and take notice.

 Yes Miki, I am certainly guilty of some cliche'ism. I'm no writer and have no scruples when it comes to a cliche or two or even a touch of plagiarism, and I envy those who can command a living with the pen. But I have strong opinions on the above subject/s and find it difficult to hold my tongue/pen.

 Anyway from the response,  it seems that I have prompted a few other folks to express their views. At least France is a 'free' country and one can express ones views without the risk of  a Gendarme hammering at ya front door at 3 am in the morning.

 Anyway, that's my moan for today done, But watch this space.