Is This Legal

[86er]

I have just lost a job to someone who himself is registered but, I am led to believe, brings in Polish lads to do the work. He can hammer out the job in half the time and for 30 - 40% less than I quoted.

I explained to the client that if this was not legal he should be very careful but he assured me that the registered guy went to great lengths to assure him that it was totally legal.

Apparently, the Polish lads come in for 2 weeks, get paid and then head back to Poland. Is this legal ??

[giantpanda]

Hi!

There are regulations.

The question is, does the employer respect these?

For what can go under the heading travailleurs saisoniers:

http://www.droit.org/jo/19970411/MAEJ9730011D.html

Otherwise:

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2651.xhtml?&n=Etrangers%20en%20France&l=N8&n=Citoyens%20communautaires%20en%20France&l=N112&n=Citoyens%20europ%C3%A9ens%20:%20droit%20au%20s%C3%A9jour%20des%20%22actifs%22&l=N13524

Yours,

giantpanda

NB. The employer can also treat with a French agency, who does theoretically all the red tape.

[Iceni]

Why not hand all the details to your local Chambre de Metiers. They should tell you

1. whether all is legal

2. if not, whether they or anyone else will take action.

John

[LesFlamands]

Well, from what I hear there is no great shortage of work in Poland at the moment so you have to assume that these Poles are doing shorterm contracts in France for some financial benefit over and above covering their accommodation and travel costs. So in order for your competitor to make it attactive enough for them to come all the way from Poland yet still undercut you by 30% I can't imagine he is covering all the charges that would be levied in France and/or Poland if the whole thing was legal and above board.

The beneficiary of this cheap job also is not going to try too hard to find flaws in the scheme as he is saving a load of money.

I'm always having trouble with my competitors (who are registered but probably not insured) employing itinerant non registered brits. to do the work at low cash rates - the client still gets a facture so he's not concerned regarding the legality of the labour force.

[86er]

Giantpanda - thanks for the links. My spoken French is reasonable but it'll take me a while to wade through the info within these links. Good practice of course.

Iceni - good suggestion and thanks for that - but I'm not sure that I want to go down that road just yet.

Les Flamands - in general I agree with your thinking, although I will not comment on the insurance aspect of your post. For sure the client is rubbing his hands with glee and perhaps there will be a degree of "you pays your money" etc - but most of those that operate in this area and do the damage to us are simply working on the black. The big problem with that, of course, is that the client doesnt give a damn. They simply see the bottom line.

 

[Poppy]

86er take consolation in the fact that the client might really regret his choice a couple of years on.

[LesFlamands]

It's very hard to sell your services to anyone based on the legality of the service you offer (fully legal workforce and full insurance). I've been knocked back on several jobs even by clients telling me at the outset that all they want is a legal established builder so they don't upset any of their neighbours etc.. Once they received the estimate their resolve to do things properly soon disappears. Where I can, I have no hesitation passing on information to the authorities, however, not much seems to happen.

[86er]

LesFlamands - again I agree with your thinking but I am very concerned about going down that road. What concerns me most is that if this system is not illegal then we all could end up in financial dire straights. I cannot believe that the French authorities would allow an English registered (so I am assured) builder to bring in unregistered Polish workers to come into France, work for 2 or 3 weeks, pay no cotisations or impots and simply clear off into the sunset. If it does prove to be allowable then we have a longer term problem t deal with.

[JMB]

It's called open market competition, we all have to deal with it.

[Victor Meldrew]

I have just lost a job to someone who himself is registered but, I am led to believe, brings in Polish lads to do the work. He can hammer out the job in half the time and for 30 - 40% less than I quoted.

 

Firstly what is he registered as?

If he is a maitre d'eouve then ne does not need insurances but any one he employs has to be registered with the CdeM and has to have the necessary insurances to cover the work that they are doing and also third party liability.

Where we live a guy did just this, the work was of poor quality, there were no insurances and when things went wrong nothing was ever put right. Need I go on, but he soon had the gendarmes crawling all over him and was banged to rights.

What I would do is a search on the net to see what he is registered as and if necessary get in touch with the CdeM and let them do the rest.

Hope this helps

Victor  

[86er]

JMB -  if it is LEGAL open market competition then you are quite right. But if it isnt legal then its hardly competition. Hence my question in the first instance.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

I don't think one can assume that Polish workers working in France or elsewhere in the European Union are both (illegal) and (b) incompetent. The Irish construction boom (now sadly bust) was sustained by immigrant workers, many of whom at the same time revived the property rental business. Many of these same workers have now migrated to London and the Olympics project, and the image of the 'Polish plumber' is well estabsished over a number of years.

Over the decades immigrant workers have traditionally taken on the lowest paid jobs and/or been prepared to accept lower wages, due to the lower living costs back in their home country. The European Union is founded on the principle of the freedom of movement of 'people, goods, services and capital'. These are the realities.

Peter-Danton de ROUFFIGNAC www.francemediterraneanproperty.com

[86er]

I quite agree Peter. I havent, or hope I havent, implied that Polish guys are automatically illegal nor have I, or at least I hope I havent, implied that their work is of a differing standard to ours. In truth, I have seen some works by a Polish crew and it was of a very good standard.

[LesFlamands]

[quote user="P-D de Rouffignac"]I don't think one can assume that Polish workers working in France or elsewhere in the European Union are both (illegal) and (b) incompetent. The Irish construction boom (now sadly bust) was sustained by immigrant workers, many of whom at the same time revived the property rental business. Many of these same workers have now migrated to London and the Olympics project, and the image of the 'Polish plumber' is well estabsished over a number of years.

Over the decades immigrant workers have traditionally taken on the lowest paid jobs and/or been prepared to accept lower wages, due to the lower living costs back in their home country. The European Union is founded on the principle of the freedom of movement of 'people, goods, services and capital'. These are the realities.[/quote]

You cannot relate the use of migrant workers in other european countries in the past to the current situation in France.

There are no border controls so the Poles, as with any other EU national can enter France without any paperwork but if they work in France they either need to register as self employed or get a contract of employment. There are no alternatives. These poles who are apparantly only working on a short contract are hardly likely to register as self employed, get insurance and pay cotisations for a 2 week job. If they are employed the minimum contract is one month and they will receive at least the minimum wage but, as I said before, travelling from Poland and paying for accommodation whilst in France they are hardly likely to work for SMIC when work is, apparantly, plentiful in Poland. So the contractor is paying a good rate to get these people to come from Poland which means his costs rise, yet he can still undercut others by 30%  so I can only assume that these Poles are super human and do twice as much in a day than the Brits. and the French.

[suein56]

[quote user="LesFlamands"]So the contractor is paying a good rate to get these people to come from Poland which means his costs rise, yet he can still undercut others by 30%  so I can only assume that these Poles are super human and do twice as much in a day than the Brits. and the French.[/quote]

When a house was being built on a plot behind us last year, by a reputable local firm, the actual block building was done by a team of non-French workers who spoke to each other with a distinctly Polish accent. Only the team leader spoke French and the whole team worked like nothing I have ever seen before. They were mini-bussed in to start at 9am, they had no 'tea' breaks but they stopped for lunch - well this is France - for 1/2 hour and finished when they had achieved whatever the goal was for the day, but never before 6pm, frequently after.

Sue

[Frederick]

 Its  fact of life that Polish workers will work harder... put in more hours and do it for less pay....and they will go ask what they can do next as soon as a job is finished ...The company my wife worked for took them on and found them to be  some of  the best workers they had ..These were people who walked into reception and asked if they  were taking on staff.............somthing the  local unemployed never seemed to do...France is just going to have to get used to it as the UK has .

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="Frederick"]
France is just going to have to get used to it as the UK has .
[/quote]

For *ucks sake why? We (legal Artisans) pay protectionist rates of social charges, so is it not reasonable to expect protectionist levels of support?. Fat chance! I, for one, am pissed off (to put it mildly) of losing work to illegals (of any nationality) and getting no support from the authorities.

 

[YCCMB]

Loving the way everyone's assuming these people are "illegals". Oddly, from my (quite extensive) experience with Polish workers in many different fields (including building) in the UK, there are remarkably few who will entertain working illegally. As an example, an ex-student of mine, a master stonemason with a degree in sculpture who had run his own business in Poland and was personally responsible for refurbishing and carving the marble bathrooms in the Presidential Palace in Warsaw when it was refurbished, had closed his business in Poland and come to England to work (as a general builder) because he couldn't continue to run his business in Poland and survive without working illegally, which he refused to do. Having seen photographs of projects he'd worked on in Poland and Germany (where he also worked legally), we suggested to him that there might be a market for his skills in France (he had made many stunning stone fireplaces, very much in keeping with lots of the French traditional styles). His only question to us was whether he would be able to do this legally. He would have been quite happy to turn out quite simple stone fireplace surrounds for €300 (yes, €300).

This guy is just one example. Hes' now returned to Poland, as have many of his fellow countrymenn. And why not? Over the last couple of years, salaries in Poland have increased by 26% in many sectors. As hosts of the European Cup, or whatever (football? Pah!) in 2012, Poland is building a number of new stadiums (stadia?) across the country, and is crying out for skilled tradesmen to work on them. They're sending representatives of many towns and cities across Poland to the UK to persuade Poles to go home, safe in the knowledge that there are jobs for them. And a significant number are doing just that.

There are probably only as many bad apples from Poland working abroad as there are bad apples from England. Although my personal belief is that there are probably fewer. There are, however, unscrupulous gangmasters and the like, who will persuade the more financially desperate Eastern Europeans to come to work in another country for loadsamoney, only to exploit them and pay them a pitifully poor wage. I've seen that, too. Either way, Western Europe is becoming increasingly unattractive to these people, as theior own country gets its act together. I suspect that what you're seeing is the last knockings of a dying trend. It's unlikely to keep happening.

[LesFlamands]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]His only question to us was whether he would be able to do this legally. He would have been quite happy to turn out quite simple stone fireplace surrounds for €300 (yes, €300).
[/quote]

I don't know how he can do this without knowing the cost of raw materials, the level of business he'll atract or the monthly charges he would pay. High compulsory charges in France make it virtually impossible to undercut the competition and survive - which is why the majority of businesses fail after a year.

The OP was about workers coming in for 2 weeks and the contractor being able to undercut the competition by 30% and within the French system I cannot see how this is being done legally.

[YCCMB]

He was calculating this on the basis of obtaining the stone required from a source he already knew well, in Belgium, I think. It was an arbitrary figure based, not on having the remotest idea of  his overheads in France, but on what he'd charge for the work based on his own long-standing experience and the cost of his own labour. Of course he wouldn't have the remotest idea of what it would cost him to carry out the work in France, and he wouldn't have wanted to do it illegally. I was merely using this as an example of the staggering difference between what a Polish craftsman would be likely to charge for this work and what I can only imagine you would have to pay a French craftsman or one of another nationality working in France.

Maybe you can't see how it's being done legally, and maybe it isn't. Neither you nor I know that for a fact, though. What is a matter of record is the exploitation of east European workers, who are sometimes duped into working in a situation or conditions which they'd rather not be, but they're made financial "prisoners" of their employers.

[JMB]

So if I ask a British or German company to make and install a fireplace they are not allowed to do the istallation. Or if I buy a aircon system for my depot from a Spanish company they are not allowed to intall it. Or if I buy a machine which needs specialist installation from a Italian company they are not to do that. I don't think so. 

[Frederick]

 When loads of East Europeans were heading to the UK for work by whatever means they could use to get there ...France was happy to see them on their way..........now that these  people have decided not to cross the water and work in France ...they want to pull up the drawer bridge !..These people exist...they are free to move about the EU ...now they want to work where they want within it ....should have thought about it more before it was agreed to expand ...its too late now !

[Victor Meldrew]

No probs with them working here in France. As long as they follow the same rules as the rest of us that have registered and pay our cotisations and insurances.

Victor 

[YCCMB]

Maybe someone should read this and decide whether it's legal and whether, indeed, Accor and Tesco are breaking the law???[8-)]

[url]http://www.wannonce.com/annonce/artisans-polonais-a-employer---offre-mac-38264.htm[/url]

And maybe someone should also read this: apparently, Poles don't have to come all the way to the UK to be ripped off by rogue employers, either! They can stop in France and be just as exploited!

[url]http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/economie/les-ouvriers-polonais-contre-le-patron-voyou_466124.html[/url]

See, a lot of them believe they ARE following the rules. They get jobs through companies like the first one, or indeed the second one cited in the links above, and put their trust in people. Because probably, in just the same way that "France is just like 1950's Britain", Poland is "just like 1950's France"[:D][:D]