HELP - are we in trouble??

[John]

Can anyone give us some advice on:-

Fitting a fosse septic - our builder has installed one on our property, but did not obtain permission first, which we have heard in conversation we may need.

The builder has already begun work by converting a room downstairs into a bathroom and seperate toilet.  We are going to France over Xmas to inspect this and if we are happy we were going to start him on the next phase, which is to convert the attic/adjoining barn into 3 bedrooms (one en-suite) and construct 5 dormer windows.  Again our builder is telling us we do not need to obtain permission for this work. 

We have not involved our local Mairie, as again our builder says we do not need to.

We are now starting to get worried, can anyone tell us if what he is telling us is correct.

Then, if you're still looking for something to do, can anyone tell us how we go about getting the white propane tanks installed which is on our list of things to do.

Many thanks

John and Karen

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]Can anyone give us some advice on:- Fitting a fosse septic - our builder has installed one on our property, but did not obtain permission first, which we have heard in conversation we may need. The ...[/quote]

Oh dear. Is your builder a Brit?

Fosse are unique in being about the only "building" work that requires certification. Hence they need permission BEFORE construction. Around here, you can't get permission for ANYTHING until your fosse is "legal".

Adding 5 dormers will change the outside of the building and will require a Declaration de Travaux as a minimum. If the barn is within a specific distance from existing agricultural buildings then you need a Permis de Constuire, which you won't get.

I wonder why your builder recommends against contacting the Mairie? Perhaps because he knows that what you want to do can't be done?

Nah, cummon this is a wind-up isn't it? I get the joke (not!).

Re: LPG tanks - look in yellow pages. You hire them from the gas companies. They must be installed & certified by a competant, registered fitter or the gas co won't fill them. AFAIK they are always white!

[Val_2]

Firstly dump this builder, he has no idea of what he is allowed to do here. You need authorisation from both the local mairie and prefecture via SATESE with soil testing etc BEFORE you even start to install a fosse as there are many papers to fill in,drawings etc and details of nearby watercourses. Installations will be inspected at some time and you will be asked to provide all the paperwork for verification. With dormer windows,you need to submit,as Nick says, a déclaration de Travaux and if YOU DO WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION THERE IS A VERY BIG CHANCE YOU WILL BE MADE TO RETURN THE BUILDING TO THE ORIGINAL STATE at your own expense. This makes me wonder if your builder is a brit with no idea, no registration,insurances and not paying his dues here,hence no contact with the authorities wanted. As an employer in France you carry a very large can if all not properly done.

[Battypuss]

I hate to be the possible harbinger of bad news, but it sounds like you are 'dans le merde'. I don't know where you found this builder, who sounds like a real cowboy (ANY French builder worth his Siret number would not have made such a series of such blatant errors), but I suggest you sack the twerp and take him to court.

Another case of jumping in where angels fear to tread, I suppose; a warning to all. CHECK THE FACTS FIRST.

[Simon]

Most reputable firms will do the required paperwork for you.

S

[Will]

Val and the others who have responded are certainly right about the legal position. However, at least in the case of the septic tank you may get away with it. There are literally thousands of French houses with septic tanks that were installed years ago and nobody may have records of them - in many cases owners won't even know where they are. Inspecting and updating all such installations will be a mammoth task, and in practical terms I don't see how it can be done 100%. If your installation could be said to be one of these you may be OK.

Though of course if the place was a total wreck with no drainage when you bought it, it will be obvious that you have had a drainage system installed. In that case the best thing you can probably do is come clean and say what has happened - you trusted the installer to arrange for the necessary permissions and you don't think he has done so. You will probably get a sympathetic hearing, but unfortunately, depending mainly on the attitude of your maire towards incomers, that might not be the case.

[BJSLIV]

Bethune's main risk regarding the fosse is that when permission is sought for the building work, this will provoke an inspection of the drains. If the new fosse is not deemed to be up to  standard it will all have to be done again.

[Val_2]

Yes I can confirm that it is true. We spent a good half hour on council last night discussing these problems and so far the local inspections are well under way on outlying and isolated properties for the time being to see where their waste is going. My friend has already received a letter, six weeks after her inspection telling her to get her grey water discharge stopped from going into the road ditch and back into her tanks BUT they have said there is no hurry for the moment. Anyone wanting permission for building works will have their drainage assessed prior to any decisions given.

[Piprob]

Sorry to read about your difficulties and I hope it works out OK for you in the end. But it sounds like you made insufficient effort to understand the rules before you started your project, and then asked people you don't know to undertake the work. This approach guarantees problems. It never fails.

[Dick Smith]

If I were you I would have a chat with the maire and tell him/her the whole story - though you might ask around to find out if he is sympa first. We had an opposite case - the maire said it was ok to put in a window, but the builder insisted we ask for formal permission and now the regional office is asking for plans etc. No hint that they will say no, but they want everything done according to the rules. The maire might help you out if you are straight with him.

[John]

Thank you all for your replies, some sympathetic and some not! 

Nick - it's not a joke, just an honest concern we were asking help on.

For your information the builder is FRENCH.  He is siret registered and was recommended to us by three local french people.  We did research these works, but when you raise concerns to your builder about getting permission and he replies that none is needed because the property is in an isolated location - how can you question what he is telling you.  After all, he is a FRENCH BUILDER who you expect to know the regulations.

We have taken on board all of your comments and are confronting our builder about these issues.

Thanks again, keep coming with the suggestions.  We will keep you updated.

John and Karen

 

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]Thank you all for your replies, some sympathetic and some not! Nick - it's not a joke, just an honest concern we were asking help on. For your information the builder is FRENCH. He is siret regis...[/quote]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to do you down, but your post really did look like a troll.

Good luck, & indeed, please keep us posted. There are still some on this forum with something to learn!

[Mark]

As soon as I saw this thread, I knew which direction the comments would take, and it has been nice to see that rather than the naive English property owner employing only English builders on the black (because they can't speak a word of french) that the truth seems to be how things should be done correctly, but still get your fingers burnt.

We too tried to do things correctly.

On seeing our property, we decided that we needed to have a survey (of the french sort),and being in touch with the 'Successful' (hint, hint) estate agent that was selling the property, he (in a dutch accent)(further hint) recommended us to use a Maitre d'Oeuvre and then gave us the name of one that he had experience of in the past.

There was a charge for the survey, but as we know is normal, we were told (by the estate agent) that if we employed his services to carry out any remedial work if we bought the house, then his survey fee would be knocked off the total cost of his fee.

The survey was done, and some work (fosse, new doors and windows, repairs to torchis, etc) was recommended.

We went to the Marie for the form for work to the outside of the property (velux windows) including the new fosse. And, as we would not be in France to obtain devis or monitor the work, we did decide to go with the MoD as his estimates for the work and his fee seemed reasonable.

Following discussion, he said he would, as part of his work, handle all paperwork and so we gave him the bundle from the Marie and asked him to progress the work. Back came a devis for the work from him and the enterprise he recommended, we changed a few things (took out new doors and windows) and obtained a new devis which was acceptable and we signed.

The work finally went ahead after many dissapointing visits where nothing had happened as were told by the MoD it would (I did try chasing him by phone, his mobile, e-mail and post), I recon I had a reply rate to about 1 in 5 messages. Each tranche of work was to a reasonable standard and we paid up (promptly) as each invoice arrived.

The work on the house was completed and we were given the final invoice. It did not have his initial fee removed from the total. The MoD got angry when we queried this and said he was in business and had mouths to feed and had not agreed to waive his initial fee. We got in touch with the estate agent who spoke to him. We agreed that as there was some work to be done on our barn, he would arrange this and waive his fee for that part of the work. The work involved taking down part of a modern extension to the barn and stripping off one side of the roof slates (too poorly laid to patch and laying bitumen felt as an interim measure. I asked that all parts of the barn that were removed be left for us to reuse.

The work went ahead and we paid after some friends who managed to get over and look at the work for us and take some photos said that it had been done to a good standard.

Ok, so here we go.

Firstly, we spent a large part of last (very hot summer) digging away 200 years of soil built up around the cellars, to stop water seepage. the builders filled the ditches in with broken slates and covered it over with a thin layer of soil.

They took all of the good slates and unbroken pieces of wood from the extension away with them. The MoDs answer to this was that we did not have an agreement in writing (what were WE paying him for, he seemed to be working for the enterprise!)

At Easter this year we had a visit from a very nice, but upset, man, who had a devis with our name on it for fitting of the fosse. He was not from the enterprise whos devis we had signed.

He had not been paid!

We tried ringing the MoD, but the recorded message said that the number was no longer in use, so went to Les Moutiers-Hubert (hint for suspect number two) to see the MoD, who looked surprised as he was just coming out of his house at the time. The guy asked for his money and the MoD then queried me as to if I had paid him (the MoD). He then said to the guy that could he come back the next day as he didn't have the paperwork with him. Fortunately, the guy stuck to his guns and ended up with a cheque about 20 mins later.

I managed to get a copy of the devis from Mr nice man, and low and behold, it was abut 1500€ less than we had signed the devis with the first enterprise for. He had been subcontracted by the MoD and we had paid the original devis price!

4 months ago I got in touch with the estate agent, who you will remember recommended the MoD, and sent him copies of the paperwork trail which shows the fraud.

He said that he sent the MoD a registered letter pointing things out, but since then we have heard nothing (after ringing the estate agent and sending e-mails).

The Mayor called round to see us in August to see about our sanitary arrangements. He was surprised that we had a fosse, as no paperwork had been submitted...

He was very nice about it and we went to see him at the Marie a few days later where he filled in some paperwork and all was fine. He said that the MoD was not an honourable man and he would ask/warn his acquaintances about him.

Now, to sum up, we tried to do the right things, we do speak enough French to understand and make ourselves understood (all of the conversations involved in this saga, with the exception of the estate agent, have been in French), we don't think we are particularly stupid, but with hindsight....

Please take ths very long post as a warning. There are always people out to screw you, you do what you can, but sometimes it is not enough, especially when you think that there may be two people who you trust who may be in cahoots with each other (no proof though)!

You may ask yourselves why we don't follow this up, maybe in court?

I may be paranoid, but we only spend 5 or 6 weeks at the house in a year, colombage houses burn well, and the house is isolated, so a van could quite easily pull up and have plenty of time to empty the place.

If anyone wants actual names please e-mail me and I would be more than happy to oblige.

Mark