What will happen if we

[epinay]

put in a new opening for a door and small window in an existing single storey lean-to block extension at the back of our stone house, WITHOUT a Declaration de Travaux?  I've read the form and it all seems so unnecessarily detailed and time consuming/costly that we are tempted to just go ahead and make the opening, put in the door and window and ignore the red tape.  I know some of you will come back at me with only doom and gloom about french burocracy, but if it's not the guillotine for us, and might only be viewed as a minor omission/infringement - the formalities of which which can be easily sorted out if required when we eventually sell  - then we would go ahead.

Apologies to all of you who insist on going by the book (well done), and opinions please from anyone who might know the consequences of what we are considering.

Thanks in advance

Diana

[benson]

On the back of or planning permission certificate it stated that any exterior work (work that can be seen from the out side) could not be done without permission and if it was found to be done there was a list of penalties fines by size of work and even imprisionment and of course having to put things back the way they were this info is remembered off the top of my head so is a bit vauge but I cant face sorting through the mountains of paperwork in th cupboard!! Its a bit doom and gloom I know.  We did consider altering some window/door sizes but were told that there is a possibility of inspectors coming to check at some point and then the same as above would apply.  Others said to us no one ever comes to inspect but seeing as we have no way of knowing whos in the occasional car that drives by we decided to be better safe than sorry!

[zeb]

Sorry - but it really is best to get the necessary permission as you never know who will tell on you!!

When we first started on the building works, after permission had been obtained, our neighbours suggested that we get the required board out on display as the postie had asked about the works and whether we had a permis!

Our Maire also does a fortnightly drive past - we just wave and smile sweetly now as he told us off a couple of years ago after our fosse installer had filled in the pond (not at our request) with spoil. We had to get it dug out again!

[epinay]

Oh dear!  Thank you so far and please keep 'em coming - we're off on Friday and want to have made a reasonably educated / risk assessed decision by then.  

As far as I understand it a new doorway doesn't need Permit de Construire, just Declaration de Travaux, so maybe it wouldn't be as severe an infringement?  Also, the new doorway won't be visible from the road as it's at the back of the house, and only one neighbour at the back will be able to see it, so unlikely to attract complaints from passers by like the postman - who clearly needs to delevop an interest or something.

All opinions/experience welcomed.

Diana

 

[Val_2]

You will need a Declaration de Travaux - don't try and buck the system or you could end up putting everything back as it was at your own expense. Just because no one can see the openings dosn't mean a thing here,there are many rules and regs that do not exist anywhere else. Your neighbours for one will probably let the cat out of the bag anyway at anything new going on.

[Mikew]

You are not supposed to start work until a month has elapsed after submitting the form and all nescessary drawings/sketches/marked up photos. To enable them to say NO!

I obtained the form to declare closing in an auvent to form a 'veranda', but the double glazing firm suddenly phoned and wanted to install a couple of months earlier than forcast. The Mairie were very helpful, phone call to the DDE, told me to go and see the man, who scrutinised the form, asked a couple of minor questions, and said 'pas probleme'. Took the forms back to the Mairie, that was back in Feb this year, have just had a tax form, 53€ to be paid in 2006, based on the size of the area closed in!

Mike

[Tresco]

 only one neighbour at the back will be able to see it, so unlikely to attract complaints from passers by like the postman - who clearly needs to delevop an interest or something.

As I understand it, if this one neighbour, or his/her friends and family, postie etc etc, 'develop an interest' you will face far more botheration than going through the correct procedure.

Don't underestimate just how interested people will be in what you are doing with your house. I got into a conversation with a woman recently, I had never met her, yet she knew who had put my stairs in, what sort of wood they are, and was hinting that she knew how much we had paid!

tresco

 

[epinay]

OK, I'm convinced!  

Would anyone care to walk me through the form? ? 

I went through it with a friend who is a french teacher and it was her confusion that put me off - if she can't make head nor tail of it I don't have a hope.  She seemed to think we need to get plans drawn up though I'm not sure she's got that right.  I was hoping a before photo with dimensions and maybe picture of proposed door would be good enough. 

HELP PLEASE!! 

I've already downloaded the Declaration de Travaux form and instructions that go with it - if anyone is interested you can get it here: http://www2.equipement.gouv.fr/formulaires/formfiche.asp?IdFormulaire=43 

and instructions on how to complete it here: http://www2.equipement.gouv.fr/formulaires/docassocies/50014.pdf

here's hoping, Diana

 

[Anton Redman]

"  I've read the form and it all seems so unnecessarily detailed and time consuming/costly that we are tempted to just go ahead and make the opening, put in the door and window and ignore the red tape. "

As I have said before form took me  10 minutes to fill in by hand at Marie. They took the 'photo of the house I had with me, I drew in new French Windows on three photo copies of the the 'photo. It took three months for the permission to come through and there was no fee what so ever.

The biggest amount of time at the Marie was convincing the three staff that there was a form that was for anything other than full planing permision. Eventually they 'phoned another Marie who told them where to find the form.

If you have 5 meters clear in all directions from the openings I would risk it but I used to fly regularly on Varig and Aeroflot. Times have got tighter in France and I would not risk it with sight on Ancient building or any of 'The Most Beautiful Villages in France' or places like Honfleur etc. If on the other hand you know the mayor  and you only over looking neighbour I would ask them. Friend recently had to retro fill in the form for simply changing windows,

 

 

[epinay]

Thanks, Anton

I'm obviously not as au fait with the french technical terms on the form as you - I was a bit daunted and when my fluent friend kept reaching for the dictionary my heart sank even further.  We are in a rather scenic/touristy/medieval town though so maybe we'll have a go like you did with some photos.  I don't think our alterations would be spotted by a plane though, and it's in a single skin breezeblock extension that aesthetically should never have been granted planning permission in the first place!

It's reassuring that you can apply retrospectively if you have to though.

Any more input / opinions / advice or experience of just going for it very welcome. 

Diana

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Diana,

Obviously no one can tell you what will happen, all we can do is tell you what could happen.

You could be required to put it all back the way it was, at your expense, and get fined. That would be about the worst case scenario. The best case is that they say nothing, making allowances for the fact that you're ignorant foreigners, but you can be sure they will make a note on your dossier, and God help you if ever you need to get a Permis, or help from the Mairie.

My suggestion is that you put aside Brit thinking. In the UK they scrabble desperately through the rules to find some reason to stop you doing what you want, here they tend to search diligently to find a way of allowing you to do it. So trust them.

Go down to the Mairie and explain what you want to do and ask their help in filling in the form. That's what they're there for. If you take a sketch of the lean to and wall as it is, with a sketch of what you want, you'll probably find that's fine. If not, two photos, one as it is one with the window and door drawn on, will probably do fine.

If you're not confident in your ability to speak French adequately then ask your french speaking friend to come with you. These forms aren't THAT hard to fill in, honestly. We've had to do two or three since we've been here. The Mairie will be able to explain to him/her the info they need.

Courage. And please don't be one of the Brits who think they can get away with driving a coach and horses through the rules and regulations. In France, you have an absolute obligation to find out the rules as they apply to you. Ignorance is no defence.