epinay

Hi As I understand it you can do more or less anything INSIDE your house without a Declaration de Travaux.  It's only if it affects the outside - ie altering doors/windows/external walls/roof that you need to complete the form. Regards, Diana  

Thanks, Anton I'm obviously not as au fait with the french technical terms on the form as you - I was a bit daunted and when my fluent friend kept reaching for the dictionary my heart sank even further.  We are in a rather scenic/touristy/medieval town though so maybe we'll have a go like you did with some photos.  I don't think our alterations would be spotted by a plane though, and it's in a single skin breezeblock extension that aesthetically should never have been granted planning permission in the first place! It's reassuring that you can apply retrospectively if you have to though. Any more input / opinions / advice or experience of just going for it very welcome.  Diana  

I don't agree with Val - it can be a DIY job.   My husband has done two loft conversions single handed (well, I don't count) and they were fantastic.  Not just in appearance - they are as structurally sound as anything we could have paid someone to do.  You do have to measure very carefully when ordering the staircase, but both of our lofts/stairwells had sloping ceilings and by careful placement of the staircase/opening, you can make sure you allow for headroom.  If you are a competent and experienced DIYer it should not be beyond your capabilities and will cost a fraction of what you would have to pay someone - and in my experience you get exactly what you want and you are in control of the quality of workmanship, which is not always the case when you employ someone.  This website http://www.stairplan.com/wheredoistart.htm will help you work out the rise and going that you need to fit the space you have.  I can't advise you on cutting the joists - my H isn't here to ask, but he has done it and the attic floor and staircase is as solid as a rock, so it can be done.   As I remember,  actually installing the staircase was the easy bit - one minute you have a gaping hole in the ceiling, the next you have a proper upstairs that you can walk up to.  Bon courage, Diana   

OK, I'm convinced!   Would anyone care to walk me through the form? ?  I went through it with a friend who is a french teacher and it was her confusion that put me off - if she can't make head nor tail of it I don't have a hope.  She seemed to think we need to get plans drawn up though I'm not sure she's got that right.  I was hoping a before photo with dimensions and maybe picture of proposed door would be good enough.  HELP PLEASE!!  I've already downloaded the Declaration de Travaux form and instructions that go with it - if anyone is interested you can get it here: http://www2.equipement.gouv.fr/formulaires/formfiche.asp?IdFormulaire=43  and instructions on how to complete it here: http://www2.equipement.gouv.fr/formulaires/docassocies/50014.pdf here's hoping, Diana  

Oh dear!  Thank you so far and please keep 'em coming - we're off on Friday and want to have made a reasonably educated / risk assessed decision by then.   As far as I understand it a new doorway doesn't need Permit de Construire, just Declaration de Travaux, so maybe it wouldn't be as severe an infringement?  Also, the new doorway won't be visible from the road as it's at the back of the house, and only one neighbour at the back will be able to see it, so unlikely to attract complaints from passers by like the postman - who clearly needs to delevop an interest or something. All opinions/experience welcomed. Diana  

Hi charley I'm replying because no one else has.   I'm no expert but as far as I know you don't have to protect the face of your stone - it's fine as it is.  We read a lot about stone having to breathe, and I don't know about that, but our stone houses have never been sealed in any way, and they've been fine.  Hopefully someone who is more of an expert than me can back this up with techical info if you feel you need it. Regards, Diana  

put in a new opening for a door and small window in an existing single storey lean-to block extension at the back of our stone house, WITHOUT a Declaration de Travaux?  I've read the form and it all seems so unnecessarily detailed and time consuming/costly that we are tempted to just go ahead and make the opening, put in the door and window and ignore the red tape.  I know some of you will come back at me with only doom and gloom about french burocracy, but if it's not the guillotine for us, and might only be viewed as a minor omission/infringement - the formalities of which which can be easily sorted out if required when we eventually sell  - then we would go ahead. Apologies to all of you who insist on going by the book (well done), and opinions please from anyone who might know the consequences of what we are considering. Thanks in advance Diana

Hi I'm not sure it's true anymore about low offers being accepted in the way you describe.  Our experience has been that we have received (and had to pay) the asking price or close to it when we have bought or sold in France. I think it depends on the area and population.  If it's a sought after area with plenty of employment or tourism you might expect to pay the full price.  If it's out in the sticks and been on the market for a long time a low offer might be accepted.  We have sold twice and received the asking price both times - but we are in a very sought after area and the houses were lovely.  We have bought twice and likewise paid the full asking price -people were queuing up to view our new house (bought recently) so we didn't waste time haggling - we wanted the house so offered the full price to secure it.   If we were the only people interested we would probably have offered 10% below asking price to start with.  If it was in the sticks and been on the market for ages we might have offered 20% below asking price.  In the end, I think it all depends how much you want the house and what it's worth to you. I'm not an expert but hope this helps. Diana  

Just wanted to add another suggestion for a good website designer.  Sonus Media did ours back in 2001 and it was really excellent - our gite was fully booked throughout 2001 - 2003.  You could update the availability yourself or have them do it for you and it was very reasonably priced. This was the web address: www.sonusmedia.co.uk/sites Regards,  Diana    

Well, maybe we did panic a bit, (thanks Andrew) but we will sleep well tonight and the next,  and the floor won't be as bouncy as it would have been with just one beam, and it will add character (which was sadly ripped out in previous renovation circa 1950), and we can have an open fire if we want, and I'm sure I can think of lots of other benefits to this more expensive 2 beam route we have hurriedly opted for in a state of nervous anxiety, just to reassure ourselves that it will all be worth it.  Like the floor may be able to take the weight of a bath now, which we had previously ruled out.  And we can have an open fire...... which is all we ever really wanted! Thank you all. Until our next conundrum.... Diana  

Good Morning Andrew I hope you slept well, because I didn't.  And we realised that we might never sleep soundly again, but hey, Fortune Favours the Brave.  Hang on though,  don't fools rush in where angels fear ..........?   Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference .  Sometimes it has to be pointed out to you.  SO, you may be relieved/ joyous / overcome  to know that we have already contacted the builder and instructed him to carry out the beam either side of the chimney scenario - so that's 4 lovely green oak beams in all.  All the more character being re-injected into our little cottage . Thank you,  Andrew ,  if not for one day saving our lives, or major fire damage to our house, then certainly for showing the way to peace of mind, sound sleep, problem-free insurance and no major flue issues to address.  So, to my lovely new green oak beams, which is where I came in..... As there's not a lot of original oak in the house apart from the attic (which we will treat), I don't think the new wood will be savaged overnight by anything too lethal (and we aren't in a termite area), it seems that we can safely do NOTHING to the green oak beams and simply enjoy them as they are. Merci et bien cordialement Diana    

Dear, dear Andrew I like the way you have really thought about this - so many people we tell it to haven't had the stamina, imagination or staying power... We thought long and hard about the two beam solution as you have suggested.  That was our Plan A.  We are on Plan B - the one beam solution so that the joists (put in during the earlier conversion) which are currently resting on the block wall could stay and rest on the new oak beams.  Seemed logical to us (also to the builder).  The reason we didn't go right back to the original (you are absolutely right, it would have been the best idea) is that it would have turned the house into a shell, which was more than we were prepared to undertake.  As it is, when they took out the huge original beams (in prior renovation circa 1950 or so) which went from front to back, they replaced them with smaller joists which go from front to centre block wall and back to centre block wall, stopping and resting on centre block wall - which we are replacing with said GREEN OAK BEAM (Blimey, I hope it's worth it!) to support the joists. Re concerns about the beam being near/in the fireplace - I know it sounds mad but don't we often see old fireplaces with beams going into the chimney  - I know I have.  The fireplace is 4ft 6ins wide and we were thinking that a flue, 16" away from the beam,  surrounded by fire-proof insulation, and the beam enclosed within fireline plasterboard would be OK.  After all, look at all the oak mantels you see in open fireplaces.  I know, I protest too much! We had two builders out to quote for the work and neither of them raised an objection.  But we are nervous and appreciate your very sensible opinions.  If we definitely shouldn't do this we have to act fast as the builder is going to start any minute, if he hasn't already!  And we are in UK at present so its a bit daunting. Thank you so much for your interest.  I'll let you know how we get on.... providing the house doesn't burn down.  Regards, Diana  

I love the way you all really listen and pay attention!! It's OK, there is already a flue liner in situ - it's 150mm or 6" near enough, and all the stoves we have been looking at are no more than that.  But, we are not sure if the flue in place is a flue for a GAS appliance, and if so, we think we will have to replace it with a solid fuel flue. Does anyone know an easy way of telling the difference?  Could it be as simple as if there is soot it's a solid fuel flue, and if there isn't, it's gas?  Sorry if that's an idiot question. Diana

I Know, I know !!!!.....when we've all stopped laughing I'll try to explain. I can hardly believe it myself, but it's true - imagine one room downstairs with a fireplace in the middle of the longer wall.  Then in circa ??? someone wants 2 rooms.  They build a block wall smack down the centre of the room, including into the chimney (right up to and including the first floor!) and then block up the fireplace.   They had 2 small rooms and no sign of a fireplace.  Now, we have revealed the fireplace, but to see the whole thing in one eyeful you have to stand in the doorway of their block wall and quickly glance left and right and pretend the wall is not smack in the middle of your view.  Anyone watched that Dustin Hoffman film where he has to screw up his eyes to make snake eyes?  That's what's required here.  Got it??  Probably not -  it's hard to imagine, and I've seen it!   In short, half the fireplace is in one room, and half is in the other.   SO.. we are removing the wall up to and including the first floor, and installing one oak beam in the ceiling of the first floor (where the wall is being removed) and one oak beam in the ceiling downstairs (where the wall is being removed.  So we will have one room downstairs, with oak beam going into the outside wall / chimney and we will build partition wall upstairs to divide into two bedrooms (more or less as before, but the load on the oak beam will be less than if we had left the wall upstairs), supported by the new beam downstairs.  Hence why we are removing the wall on the first floor too.  I wish I could draw you a picture - if someone tells me how to upload a photo you might get some idea of the situation We were advised that beam going into the wall of the chimney would be OK if fire retardent material was used and the flue was so many cms (can't remember exactly) from the beam.  Because the chimney is so wide there is room to manoevre to flue to the far side of the chimney, away from the beam.  But yes, it worries me too - hence the question re fire retardent material.  Diana    

Someone 'modernised' our old stone house about 50 years ago by taking out all the original joists and beams (maybe they were riddled with woodworm or something) and built a block wall right through the middle of the house - including through the fireplace and chimney breast but that's another story (which has caused us no end of problems as we are opening up the fireplace).  Anyway, we are removing the block wall and installing green oak beams in the ceilings to provide the support that the wall was built to do in the previous renovation.  So from the above posts about OAK, I take it we are doing the right thing installing GREEN oak beams?  Please confirm, and also please advise me what we should do to the beams - I don't want them to look treated in any way and would be happy to just leave them to dry and age in their own way.  Will this be OK? Also, advice on how to fireproof the end of the beam that will be in the chimney?  We are installing a stove, so not an open fire obviously. Look forward to your replies. Thanks, Diana    

Thank you everyone for all your feedback.  I've been swinging back and forwards with every post and we still haven't made up our minds.  Its good to hear the varying experiences though. We've requested prices from Hunter and Villager, and have been looking on ebay too at lots of different makes.  The choice is huge which doesn't help matters!   Whether we buy in France or UK might come down to price and delivery costs, - even a french supplier quoted 120 Euros to deliver, so we will have to do our sums. Thanks again for all the info.  I'll let you know what we decide and how we get on with it. Installation / chimney / flue questions will probably follow once we have the mystery stove in situ. Regards, Diana  

Hi We are thinking of buying a Hunter Herald 8 slimline multifuel stove.  Does anyone have any experience of Hunter stoves?  Any feedback will be welcome - are they reliable, efficient, easy to install etc - any info appreciated. Also if you know of a stockist in France, or who can deliver to France. Merci Diana

Hi Cathy I'm sorry to be the one with the bad news, and I'll try to say this gently, but I think you will find they are RATS.  If it sounds like they are playing football up there (probably with walnuts or something like that they have found), then I'm certain of it. In our experience rat poison did the trick but I will warn you of a terrible, sickly sweet smell that remains for some time and areas where staining came through the ceiling which smelt dreadful which we think were caused by their faeces - we had to cut out the affected bits of wall/ceiling and replaster to get rid of the smell.  We only noticed the terrible smell after we had used the poison - maybe rats going about their normal business don't smell too much, but the terrible smell they leave after they've been poisoned will stay with me for ever. We did not find any corpses - I think they take themselves off somewhere else to die thank goodness. To stop it happening again you have to make sure all your pointing is sound, so they can't get up inside any cavities. Hope this helps.  Good luck. Epinay  

Hello again to everyone who responded Thanks for your input - its been interesting and reassuring to hear your views.  We've paid the deposit, so the house is ours now (crossing fingers as I type) and we are just waiting for the Act to be signed.  We hope to be in by Easter.   We know the agents and they tell us people are still enquiring about the house so we believe we have got a really good buy, though I agree that if its what we want, its worth it anyway. And it really IS what we want.  We've had the experience of trying to maintain a huge country house and land I inherited 25 minutes south of Dinan where we spent 16 years of family hoilidays, then we downshifted (but not enough) to a lovely stone house, still with a big garden just north of Dinan which we loved but that was really too much to look after from a distance as well.  We knew we love Dinan, and realised we wanted to be in walking distance of the centre.  We wanted a garden, but not too big.  We wanted a character stone house, not too big and we wanted to do the renovation so we could make it how we want (and we enjoy the work).  We we are feeling very lucky to have found something which fits absolutely. To Celtic (are you Scottish like me?) I don't believe you will have a paid special over the top 'Brit' price.  The area around Dinan is rather more expensive than other parts of Brittany.  And my experience of rural french neighbours is that they are generally astonished at the prices their previously cheap houses are achieving - not just to Brits.  It is a french housing market, and unlike in the UK, rural french people do not generally keep up with what their house is worth, so when or if they come to sell, they will get a pleasant surprise when they have their house valued.  Did you buy through a french Agent?  Epinay  

Eve, I just want to say good luck and I really hope you find the support and medical help you need.   Your post really struck a chord and I will tell a shortened version of my mother's story for all those who were unsympathetic to your plight.  Things are not always as clear cut about language as they seem to imply. My mother retired to France on her own in the mid eighties and quickly became fluent.  She renovated a huge farmhouse long before these forums or other support existed,and ran a successful gite for many years singlehandedly. Things change.  Old age came, along with Alzheimers and breast cancer.  One of the strange things about dementia is that you lose the ability to speak anything other than your mother tongue.  So the only time my once fluent, brave pioneering mother needed any medical attention in her whole time in France, she had lost the ability to speak french.  My holiday french was severely challenged and I stumbled about trying to learn medical terminology and tried so hard to communicate with the doctors and nurses who were caring for her.  It was a nightmare.  My UK GP who is fluent in french actually rang and spoke to my mum's doctor to get a clearer picture for me - I didn't expect that, but it is a helping profession and I was very grateful.  This UK GP will also converse in french with patients of his whose first language is french - and this is not that unusual these days - we do live in a multi cultural society. Nobody expects french people to speak English, but there are times, when, if they can, it is a welcome aid to communication and provides a supportive environment at a difficult time.  Epinay      

We have to send the deposit very soon and aren't sure how to get the best exchange rate - also the cheapest method of transferring funds these days. We were lucky in the past exchanging Euros to £, but the rate has gone the other way now and any advice will be welcome. Thanks in advance Epinay  

We were surprised and impressed with the service our chosen agent offered.  We chose an established, privately owned french agency (bi-lingual) whose office is in a prominent position in the town.  They took brilliant photos which were in the window and on their website within days.  We gave them sole agency for 2 months, and they were through the door with viewers constantly, often several times a day, which for one of the houses meant a 25 minute drive each way.  The two houses we have sold (one in 2002, one in 2004) went within the 8 week period, both at the asking price which in both cases was higher than we originally thought they would be, which made the "buyer pays the fees" appear true to us.  They gave us a "vendors price" which we were happy with, but marketed the house at a higher price to include the fees.  This is standard practise. I can't fault the service they provided, and now we are buying through them, so this time we have to pay their fees - but I think they are worth it. We could have marketed the houses we sold privately (we had our own website with lovely photos etc for gite bookings) but we would not have had the volume of people through the door - for a start we were in the UK while most of the viewings took place.  I am certain they would have taken a lot longer to sell, and it would have been very difficult to arrange all the viewings and the necessary paperwork.  A professional agent will also deal with the transfer of utilities, tax foncieres and habitation forms etc to the new owner which can be a great relief if the buyer is an inexperienced brit struggling with the language.  The agent will also act as translator at the Notaire's office for the signing if required. Most of the property displayed on websites are already sold, because they are not the actual agents.  But, if you know the name of the high street Immobiliers and get their sites up, they are more up to date. Also the Notaires site www.immonot.com where no agent is involved, thus saving agents fees. Another thing to bear in mind:  High street windows usually display the price of the property including agents fees, but excluding Notaires fees, for the french local market.  The same house on their English language website may have a higher price, but be all inclusive.  This is not them ripping off foreigners, but displaying the total price INCLUDING Notaires fees. Epinay  

I'm sure someone with detailed knowledge will reply, but I do know that new regulations for septic tanks are coming in sometime this year, 2005, and I think all septic tanks have to be updated in line with the new regulations.  It is causing a lot of concern among home owners with old septic tanks. I don't think these regulations can be ignored, though who exactly will be checking up on you I don't know. A word of caution if you are letting - have you ever experienced an overflowing septic tank flooding your downstairs?  Its really horrible and you don't know its going to happen until its already happened. There are some septic tanks that supposedly don't need emptying - can't remember the name.  I'm sure if you do a search on septic tanks you will find lots of info, including about the new regulations Epinay

As far as I remember there are two cost elements: The contract for the rental of the tank from Butagaz or equivalent, which includes regular servicing of the tank, and safety certificate required by law every 3 years and The cost of filling the tank - around two years ago this was approx 490 Euros to fill our tank - can't remember how many litres, but the usual big white tank.  How long that would last would depend on your usage, and whether it was heating your water as well as radiators.  A full tank lasted us exactly a year - holiday use, roughly 8 weeks total throughout the year including during the winter when we had it on full, heating the water and radiators. I do remember thinking it would be expensive if we were there full time, especially as I like my baths deep and hot! Hope this helps Epinay  

I used to do something similar to Anna.  I made it clear that I would hold the provisional (telephone or email) booking for 7 days and send them the booking form and terms and conditions etc.  After 7 days I would expect the deposit to arrive.  We were lucky - the deposit usually did arrive, but if it hadn't I would feel OK about offering the week to someone else if I received an enquiry, especially as the terms and conditons clearly state that a provisional booking is only held for 7 days.  But I would say we had a provisional booking for the dates in question and ring or email the first party.  If they told me it had been posted I would wait for it to arrive (only a day or 2) and get back to the other people to update them.  If they were still interested if the first booking fell through I would get back to them as soon as I knew the dates were re-available. I would only block out the dates on our website once the deposit had been received.  Sounds like you have just been unlucky on this occasion but I'm sure it won't happen often if our experience is anything to go by.  Good luck! Epinay