Glowing flue with woodburner fire

[AFP2]

Have had the rammonage done and got the certificate. Have tried the woodburner with well seasoned dry oak bought locally and with the air inlets fully open (no flue damper fitted) the fire roars like hell and the flue pipe glows cherry red before it goes into the chimney, are we doing something wrong? The fire is not too full of wood and it needed several Zip thingys to get it lit. It has to be filled evry hour or so and won't stay in for long.

[Teamedup]

I would be frightened to death by this and not use it until I had had it checked by the installer and if you did it yourself then I would ask an installer and to come out and check it.

I really believe that it should not be glowing red.

I reckon you should have a damper too. Ours used to run with the damper more or less in the almost shut position once the fire was going and it would give off quite sufficient heat all day and fully shut it at night before going to bed  and it would keep going on tick over all night long. It didn't need logs putting on it all the time either.

 

 

 

[AFP2]

Thanks, it did worry us. We don't know who installed it, so we will contact someone local to put things right. It is very hard to get the fire to run gently. It looks like someone installed it themselves because the flue at the back is propped up on bricks and there is a metal plate where the pipe goes into the chimney that falls down a lot. The roof man who took the fire out to clean trhe chimney didn't say anything about it.

[Ron Avery]

[quote]Have had the rammonage done and got the certificate. Have tried the woodburner with well seasoned dry oak bought locally and with the air inlets fully open (no flue damper fitted) the fire roars like ...[/quote]

What certificate?  Is this a certificate to say that you have had your chimney or flue swept to comply with Insurance Company requirements?   I know some UK companies require this, but is it the norm in France as well?  Is it true that a neighbour can "attest" that your chimney and flue is clean? 

We are getting a wood burner installed this week,flue pipe to top of chimney is already in situ, so just a plug in to the new fire is necessary, but are there any other "legal" things that have to be done or obtained to comply with French law or Insurance company requirements?

[AFP2]

Hi, we had to get a rammonage certificate for Groupama, the Insurance company. We had to take it in for them to photocopy. It cost 70 Euros for a sweep and the certificate.

[sandt]

just answering the query on certificates of ramonage. it is a requirement to have one the fine being 100 euro as well as the fact that in the case of a fire no cert usually means no insurance.

having said that i have quite a few friends french and english who know but don,t bother to have achimney swept by the rammoneur each year prefering tto clean themselves. after all problems will only arise in the event of the need to summon pompiers.

[sandt]

just answering the query on certificates of ramonage. it is a requirement to have one the fine being 100 euro as well as the fact that in the case of a fire no cert usually means no insurance.

having said that i have quite a few friends french and english who know but don,t bother to have achimney swept by the rammoneur each year prefering tto clean themselves. after all problems will only arise in the event of the need to summon pompiers.

[SC]

<having said that i have quite a few friends french and english who know but don,t bother to have achimney swept by the rammoneur each year prefering tto clean themselves. after all problems will only arise in the event of the need to summon pompiers.>

I get the impression that most country folk have a family member who will issue a certificate 'after an event', but I certainly have no proof of this.

Incidentally the regulations state that you should have a non-gas flue swept twice a year, one during the period of use:

Le "règlement sanitaire départemental" impose les mêmes obligations générales sur tout le territoire. Il exige deux nettoyages par an pour les installations au fuel, au bois et au charbon, dont un pendant la période de chauffe, alors qu’un seul ramonage suffit pour une installation au gaz. Le "règlement sanitaire départemental" impose les mêmes obligations générales sur tout le territoire. Il exige deux nettoyages par an pour les installations au fuel, au bois et au charbon, dont un pendant la période de chauffe, alors qu’un seul ramonage suffit pour une installation au gaz.

Like you I and my neighbours just clean our chimneys once before the winter.

Steve

[Deimos]

Twice would actually be difficult to enforce (from the insurance company’s perspective if you did have a fire and needed the pompiers). If you sweep once at the start of the winter, then the 2nd sweep might be “due” in e.g. March as “of course you use your fire well into April or later”. In practice, there is unlikely to be a problem after the 2nd sweep which did not happen as you are no longer using the fire then !!

Ian

[IAN_S]

We specifically asked our Axa branch about the need for a certificate and they said "no, we don't need one but of course it would be safer to get the chimney swept". I now use a rammonage brick from our local supermarket which seems to do the job.

[Val_2]

If I were you, I'd get that flue liner ripped out and replaced properly by a proper artisan who knows what he is doing. This is the problem with buying property that has been done by incompetant DIY-ers - you will be left with the problems and the replacement work. It should never ever glow red and could catch alight very easily.

[Alcazar]

When I bought our (UK sourced) woodburner, the instructions warned of just such a scenario. Thye called it "over-firing", and warned that it shouldn't happen, but if it did, to close down the bottom air-intake vents, and the flue damper.

It hasn't so far........touch wood, and we burn very dry stuff.

Might I suggest a flue damper, and a double skinned flue?

Alcazar

[Liz]

[quote]Have had the rammonage done and got the certificate. Have tried the woodburner with well seasoned dry oak bought locally and with the air inlets fully open (no flue damper fitted) the fire roars like ...[/quote]

It has been very windy just lately which causes our stove to burn with more enthusiasm than it does on still days.  Nevertheless this sounds horrendous particularly the glowing flue pipe.  I am wondering if someone has used aluminium rather than stainless steel or enamel.  Whatever has happened I wouldn't use it until it has been checked and rectified by a pro.  If you have good dry wood, smallish bits to start with, one firelighter should do the trick and you should then be able to add larger logs and keep it going for some time, at least all day if you want it, and some will stay in all night.  You will need to add additional logs from time to time and toping up every hour or so doesn't sound too excessive to me;  it will depend on the size of the stove.

One other thing that occcurs to me.  Is it definitely a wood burner you've got?  Wood should burn flat on the base of the stove, no grate.  Some stoves are multi fuel and you may need to make alterations to put it into wood burning mode.

Liz (29)

[Teamedup]

Are french stoves usually multi fuel?

[chirpy]

DO NOT USE ZIP .A FIRE WILL START EASILY IF ALL IS WELL WITH PAPER AND STICKS IF VENTILATION IS GOOD I.E. SUPPLY OF AIR .

THIS IS NOT GENERALLY A PROBLEM IN FRANCE AS MOST HOUSES HAVE LOTS OF HOLES AROUND .EVEN WITH OUR DOUBLE GLAZING NO PROBLEM.

WE HAD A SERIOUS PROBLEM LIGHTING OUR JOTUL.

 

WE EVENTUALLY GAVE UP AND CALLED PLUMBER.

 

 

DESPITE PLUMBER CLEANING CHIMNEY HE HAD TO USE A BLOW TORCH TO START FIRE.

I TOLD HIM THAT WAS A RIDICULOUS WAY TO START FIRE AS NEXT DAY WE COULD NOT LIGHT IT.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EVENTUALLY I CLEANED CHIMNEY AND FOUND A BLOCKAGE DUE TO BUILD UP OF BLACK BISQUE WHICH HAD OCCURRED DUE TO ME BURNING AT VERY LOW SETTING OVERNIGHT AND CONTINUOUSLY OVER 3 WINTER MONTHS.!!!!!!!!!!

THE PLUMBER THOUGHT HE WAS HITTING THE COVER ON TOPOF CHIMNEY BUT I BELIEVE HE WAS HITTING THIS SOLID MASS..

AFTER USING RODS WITHOUT THE BRUSH I MANAGED TO BREAK THE LUMP OF RESIN AND IT TOOK AN HOUR . WE COLLECTED A FULL BUCKET OF BLACK BISQUE AND ONE PIECE AS LARGE AS THE FLUE DIAMETER.

AFTERWARDS IT STARTED EASILY.

I RECOMMEND CLEANING EVERY 3 MONTHS AND NOT RUNNING AT VERY LOW POSITION NOR OVERNIGHT.

P.S. I HAVE ALSO HAD RED HOT BURNING OF PIPE AND THIS WAS WHEN I LIT FIRE I OPENED BOTTOM DOOR TO GIVE IT A STARTER BOOST AND IT WAS LIKE A FURACE IN NOISE AND I WAS FORCEDV TO SHUT DOOR AND THROW A DISH OF WATER ON BACK OF STOVE PIPE. WE HAVE A SAFETY/CLEANING LID AND THIS POPPED OFF RELEASING PRESSURE AND A BIT MORE BISQUE FELL ONTO THE FLOOR BEHIND STOVE.

[Liz]

[quote]Are french stoves usually multi fuel?[/quote]

No idea if it is usual but we inherited two grotty old stoves and they were both multi fuel as was a Godin we had once.

Liz (29)

[Teamedup]

Well we would have frozen if we had taken that advice ab.

I would never burn anything that would clog up anything, if it does change what you are burning.

Zip's are fine, it is good dry non resinous wood that counts.

 

We used a turbo fonte for 15 years and during the 5-6 winter months, day and night......... at night on tick over. As we had no alternative heating AND one winter it was down to getting on for -29 degrees C, I think it was wise of us to keep the house warm, especially as we had a small baby then.

 

If something glows red that should not, I would not use it. It needs sorting out. And obviously at this time of year it needs sorting out now..............however, artisans in this line of work could well be very busy at this time of year too..... so good luck to the original poster.

 

AND my house is rather cosy and not drafty, in fact that was the most noticeable thing after our english house. We need the trickle vents and VMC to keep air circulating, due to the lack of drafts.

 

AND AB could you please stop SHOUTING!

 

Liz, what are the multi fuel options then? There used to be a shop that organised coal sales many many years ago, but that closed many many years ago. The bloke was surprised that I wanted coke, as he reckoned that it was far too dangerous to burn and the french would not use it. I never did buy any coal and I must say that I have never 'smelt' coal being burnt in France in our region at least.

[AFP2]

The fire is a Deville poele a bois? If that means anything to anyone. Managed to get a small local Chimney/Fire expert company round this afternoon and he agrees that the fire has been fitted very wrongly. The flue pipe doesn't go far enough into the old chimney, there should be a damper fitted because of the strong draught/draft???? Apparently the fire shield? is a home made thing and is not right either. There are also tar leaks in the bricks in the chimney on the first floor. We think the builder who fitted it didn't know what he was doing. We have been told not to use the fire.

[Peter72]

Build up in the flue pipe is probably caused by the fire not having enough air to burn all the volatiles off. These come out of the top of the chimney as a thick smoke and form tarry deposits when they condense out on the relatively cool flue pipe or form soot at the warmer parts and if allowed to build up can eventually catch fire and cause a chimney fire.

You can brush off these deposits which is what sweeping the chimney does. You can minimise the soot build up by firing correctly, use enough air to allow the fuel to combust fully and burn off the smoke, a decent wood burner should return the smoke to the fire to allow this, and set the stack (chimney) damper to control the ammount of draw on the fire and hence the output. Wet or resinous wood will make the problem worse. Villager recommend that you run the fire at a high setting often, ie daily, to burn off these deposits but I would not recommend this with a dirty flue as the soot, which is nearly pure carbon, will burn in the flue which is bad news.

If your flue pipe suddenly starts to glow and you only have a small fire then it will probably be on fire this can usually be put out with a fine water spray up the flue from a stirrup pump to sufficate the fire, beware of scaulding.

Regards

Peter

[Teamedup]

I am so glad that you have had someone round to look at it. Will they be able to refit it for you, or are you up to doing this yourself.

Which ever at least you know that it should work properly in the future.

 

[AFP2]

We have asked for a quote. There is no way we would attempt this ourselves. Too dangerous.

[SC]

The symtoms that you describe are similar lto a flu/chimney fire, has it happened more than the first time?

It isn't dangerous to experiment a bit, provided you don't build up such a big fire that it gets out of control. We had a little solid fuel cooker once, on which the whole cast iron top would glow when the wind was in the west (Ok, it could have been the east, we were in the west).
 
If a fire draws too fast, either too much draught (oxygen) is getting in to the fire (poor door seals etc), or the flue is drawing gases out too fast, and once the flue gets very hot, boy will it draw! Or of course, a combination of both. In theory, you should be able to shut down a fire by cutting off the draught.

I am not an expert but I've sorted out a few problems for myself- don't fit a double flue if it is insulated as the fire will draw  faster. I haven't come across a flue damper, if by that the other posters mean a device that restricts the flue, that isn't part of the stove itself (I could be wrong, they may well be available), but fitting a damper when that isn't the cause of the problem could be risky (If the fire continues to burn too fast but the gases can't escape under all conditions).

Several DIY's like Castorama sell a flue balancing valve that lets air into the flue after a preset depression is reached.

Regards,

Steve

[AFP2]

We have only had the house for a few weeks, and the woodburner is nearly new. It was the first and only time we have tried it. We have the shop Facture from the previous UK owner. 

We are going to let the local company do any work necessary and provide us with a warranty.

[hellsbells]

What is a rummage brick & where does it fit in the chimney. We had all our chimineys swept prior to use. Is that sufficient to attest that attention to duty has been done. I paid insurance locally & in person no one asked about chimney condition etc.

[AFP2]

We had to provide a copy of the Cert de Rammonage, a copy of the wood treatment guarantee, we have just provided a copy of the Consuel certificate (having had nearly 1000 Euros of remedial work done due to the half-baked previous owner's MATE), and the warranty for the roof done last year. All before they would insure us.