Planning Permission

[vickybear]

Fistly - hello!! We are old members but new users of the forum.

Secondly.......HELP!!!!  Sorry about the length of the next question, please stick with it 

We are converting our loft into two bedrooms and two bathrooms. We will not be changing the external appearance of the house i.e. no windows, velux etc. We understand we need a Permis de Construire for this ( section 4.2 - amenagement pour l'habitation d'une partie de la maison ou de ses annexes ( grenier ) ).

We visited the Maire and he said we didn't need any paperwork as we weren't changing the exterior, however after reading some horrow stories about works needing permission and not getting it, we have decided to go for the permissions and risk upsetting the Maire.

What I cannot understand from the application is which supporting documents I need to send. With my computer translation programme ( !! )  I think the reverse of the form asks for:

1. Situation plan at 1/25000th

2. 3 dimensional plan showing the situation in relation to other buildings, water supply, electricity and sewage

3. Plans of outside with drawings of closures (?? )

4. Cross sectional drawings

5. 2 photos at least, showing on the situational plan where they were taken from ( external )

6. A graphic showing what the building will be like when built ( obviously not neccessary? )

7. A description of how the work will impact on surroundings, visual aspect of the area etc

I can't see why we would need to send all of the above for internal work only? Has anyone done just internal work, keeping below the 170m limit and had a Permis de Construire passed ok? If so, what did you send.

Finally, as a second option, I have read quite a lot of people who have carried out the work without permission and tols the tax office of the increased living space afterwards. Has anyone out there done this? Who exactly do you tell and how? Did it cause any problems or questions regarding Planning permission.

Looking forward to your responses,

Shelagh

 

[Blanche Neige]

We visited the Maire and he said we didn't need any paperwork as we weren't changing the exterior,

 

Shelagh

I think the Maire is right.

I have sent you a PM

[Teamedup]

We have used up our m² constructible allowance and would not be allowed to convert our loft, I have already asked. So the Mairie telling you that you don't need permission is dubious to say the least and in my village it would be a very wrong thing to do.

I could have work done to make available space into habitable m² in either our sous sol or in the loft without changing the exterior appearance of our property at all, it would not change a thing here.

Mairies are not always the best places to ask, the DDE decides.

[BJSLIV]

I think the Maire is right

No the Maire isn't right! but he/she  is giving you the average Frenchman's answer when faced with the regulations.

It cannot be right because anything that adds to the habitable space requires permission.As you yourself have pointed out, if you don't declare it, how will they know to increase your taxes?

Now you might get away with it, but thats your choice. If they were to find out retrospectively who knows how many little regs there would be to rigorously enforced.

 

PS If you are on a septic tank, if it hasn't happened already, applying for permission will almost certainly bring on an inspection, and the requirement to make any necessary improvements. Remember more space equals a bigger tank.

[Gardian]

Shelagh ...............

I believe that a Permis is required if you are increasing the living space by more than 20 sq metres - thus from your description you almost certainly are and will thus need to go down that track.

Strong recommendation - employ an architecte.  You'll find one in the Yellow Pages or ask a friendly Immobilier for a good one. They'll understand the precise documentation requirements and prepare them meticulously - the paperwork will wing it's tortuous way through the French bureaucratic machine. On my brother-in-law's firm advice (he's a UK surveyor), we did exactly that and have never regretted it. Furthermore, it provides an unambivalent document for a builder to quote - assuming of course that you're going to use a builder rather than DIY.

Caution though - don't get sucked in to signing a contract for project management as well though. You probably won't need it. 

 

[Rascalb]

Having just gone through the process I would advise that you get permission, if you do not display the permis on your property someone may report you if they see or hear building works and then you would inccur the planning officers fine. We are converting a barn and loft and were told by Mairie that we needed permission for all habitable area created except for where the roof/ceiling is under 1.8M and if the spaces are bathroom/kitchens under 9sqM. It is needed because as stated the tax will rise and therefore implies any changes need to be noted by the authorities. You may get the larger plan on request from the Mairie which is where we obtained ours. Not being funny but if you do not register changes it may also affect later resale situation.[:)] Bon Chance

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

That really interesting, because we are going to be converting our loft and have been told that a Permis de Constructuire is only required if the total living space will then exceed 170m2, which it won't.  Apparently, we just advise the Maire of our new living space for the tax d'habitation calculation. 

Lynda

[Teamedup]

Ask at the DDE instead of the Mairie, they give the permission.

 

And as I have said, we could not convert our loft. Our balcony extention, never mind anything interior, used up all our m² habitable AND the first balcony extention we put in plans for was refused as it was too big. So there you have it, there are rules concerning even external things that affect what you can do inside your property.

 

I did point out that the loft space was already there, but that held no water at all and we were told that we could not do it.

 

I realise that I do say ask at your Mairie, but the truth is that sometimes Mairies do not have the proper information and ours has misinformed me on occassion. So there have been times when I have had to go back to the Mairie and tell them what I have found out.

 

 

[vickybear]

Right.........I'm going to talk to the DDE ( should be interesting with my limited French ) and see if I can get to the bottom of this.The Permis de Construire application definately shows you need permission for converting a 'grenier'. It doesn't say it's ok so long as you're under 170sq m.  There is so much mis-information out there, particularly with the Maire's who should help not confuse. It's so tempting to do nothing but can we really afford the potential fines and corrective work which may be required if permission is required and not obtained and we're found out? I'm worried that by doing the work and THEN advising the Maire of the new living space I'll open a can of worms. But if we don't declare the extra space we're actually defrauding the French government by underpaying tax d'habitation which is not recommended!!

I'll post what I find out when and if I do.

Thanks to all, please keep the replies coming in.

Shelagh

[Will]

It is my understanding that you need a permis de construire for any such work, regardless of the size. The 170m² area is the size (total habitable area) above which you need architect's plans - below that you can draw up the documentation yourself.

I would agree that you shouldn't necessarily rely on the maire's advice - maires are usually ordinary working people, not qualified in building, planning and architectural subjects. We have seen several instances of people submitting the simpler declaration de travaux on the maire's advice, covering an additional window or two, only to be asked a little later, by DDE, the local planning office, for a full permis de construire covering the internal works.

[Blanche Neige]

On reflection;

apologies to all, I read Vickybear's original posting in haste and didn't take in the finer points. I did not really register how much work she was planning .

I did assume the Maire would know but then.......................you never can tell.

[Gardian]

Coincidentally, our neighbour came round this afternoon to ask my, yes my advice for his Permis de Construire! This is in itself unusual, because Michel reckons that all the British know absolutely nothing about building, DIY etc, let alone French regs.

On his visit to the Mairie, he was told that he had to do exactly what Will has said - 170 sq m = signoff by an architecte. He really had the hump, but could I give him details of the architecte we had used ("She seems like a nice lady").

I couldn't bring myself to tell him that it'll probably cost him E500 instead of the E50 that he thinks she'll charge for rubber-stamping his own drawings + one of his loveable hugs. 

[tj]

Hi

this might help, a rather crude translation however.

Permit building or declaration of work?

If you make or not carry out a residential building, even not comprising foundations, you must obligatorily obtain as a preliminary a permit building.

This obligation also is essential for work which modifies the appearance, changes the destination or creates additional levels with any existing construction.

The permit building makes it possible the commune of check the conformity of your project with the applicable local rules of town planning.

On the other hand, if your work is of low importance, you will have to deposit a simple declaration of work.

Will be thus subjected to the declaration of work:

an extension of building not exceeding 20 m² except work crudes (the creation of a veranda for example)

a non covered swimming pool

frames and greenhouses up to 2000 m² height ranging between 1 meter and half and 4 meters.

No authorization of town planning (allowed to build or declaration of work) is obligatory for all the works whose surface on the ground is lower than 2m² and of which the height does not exceed 1 meter and half. It is the same for the walls for less than 2 meters which are not used as fence, the terraces of less than 60 cm in height, the installations temporary for the building sites and the statues, monuments and works of art of less than 12 meters in height and 40 cubic meters.

The duration of instruction of your request for permit building will be two months counters only one month for a declaration of work.

The participation of an architect proves always advantageous to conceive and draw up a project subjected to a request for permit building, which it is about construction of a house, transformation or enlarging of a housing or a room. However, you are not held to resort to an architect if you do work subjected to preliminary declaration.

Just like the certificate of town planning allowed it to build free and is subjected to one limited period of validity (24 months) which can be prolonged.

It is generally the mayor who makes the decision to grant or not a permit building if it has of a plan of occupation of the grounds or a local plan of approved town planning. If you are in disagreement with the decision taken you have the right to carry out a recourse (administrative or legal) as an applicant of the permit building.

Conversely, if you feel injured by an authorization of permit building delivered with a third, you also have the possibility of initiating a legal or administrative procedure.

As of reception of the permit building, the publicity of this one must be made on the ground and for all the duration of the work.

For any further information, contact your town hall or the departmental direction of the equipment.

Particular case of the construction of a fence
Only the ends of agricultural or forest use are not subjected to a declaration.

In almost all the other cases a preliminary declaration is obligatory.

A complete file must be deposited with the town hall of the commune where is located the ground to enclose.

	Permit building	Declaration of work
Construction or enlarging < 2m² and height < 1,5 m	NOT	NOT
Construction or enlarging > 2m² but < 20m²	NOT	YES
Construction or enlarging > 20m² but < 170m²	YES	NOT
Construction or enlarging > 170 m²	YES	NOT
Non covered swimming pool	NOT	YES
Enclose	NOT	YES

The declaration of opening of building site
Once your request for permit building accepted, you must to be able to begin work to make a statement of opening of the building site.

This statement must be made with the town hall of the commune where the building site is located.

Established once, the authorization will be the subject of a posting on street, which must offer for two months a possible recourse of the thirds. This recourse can cause the stop or the destruction of work already completed. Throughout all building site, posting will remain in place by mentioning the intervening companies. Any defect of posting is liable to fine