Elecrical wiring

[Creuseman]

I remember reading somewhere that it is now legal in France to use UK type cable i.e. 2.5mm T&E etc so long as the tails are covered with the correct colour sleeveing and it is run in flexi conduit. Is this correct? If so where, except for coloured PVC tape, can you get coulored sleeveing to go over the existing cable.

Also is it true that you cannot use UK consumer units (i.e. common negative block) and have to use French where each outlet has live and neutral connections?

[Anton Redman]

Although the colours are now harmonised it would still fail an inspection by the CONSEUL because :

The earth cable is a smaller cross sectional area that the phase and return

The cable with not be marked NF = Norme Francais

For a new instalation you need bipole and you also hit the NF problem

Coloured sleeve as below

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/cat.jsp?cId=A331804&ts=59095

Although you can buy heat sensative shrink on wrap in short lengths at the bigger DIY sheds

 

[Alcazar]

As Anton says, but what you CAN now do, (or so I believe), is use UK sourced single cored cable in the proper colours, and fitted in a conduit.Bought from Screwfix, they are cheaper.

Alcazar

[cheminot]

[quote user="Alcazar"]

As Anton says, but what you CAN now do, (or so I believe), is use UK sourced single cored cable in the proper colours, and fitted in a conduit.Bought from Screwfix, they are cheaper.

Alcazar

[/quote]

I beg to differ on this. I bought 3x 100m coils of 2.5mm cable from screwfix only to find it was cheaper in the local brico!

As for TW+E and sleeving, dont bother, it is not acceptable in France. You can use 3 core flex but it is relatively expensive and like single core has to be run in 'gaine' (conduit). As Anton said french consumer units must be double pole, all the english ones I've seen are single pole so cannot be used in France now.

cheminot

 

[powerdesal]

A quick question that may be relevent, can anyone confirm (or

otherwise) that double insulated cable type FR-N 05 VV-U or R, A05 VV-F

can be used without being in gaine necessarily.

[Anton Redman]

I believe you can use 'Cable Rigid' FR-N O5 VV-U or R provided it is surface mounted and can be replaced without damage to the property. You cannot run it hidden through walls celing voids etc withiut prrecting it with conduit

I do not think you can use 'Cable Flexiable' A05  VV-F as this is what would be called 'flex' in the UK can only be used to connect appliances to sockts rather than as part of permenant wiring.

Link below

http://www.mr-bricolage.fr/modules/espconseil/fiches_conseils/Mb3-04.htm

[Rtony]

I've read on numerous occasions that in France single pole mcbs can't be used. So I was very suprised when I saw that our local Bricomarche was selling them!

tony

[Anton Redman]

[quote user="Rtony"]

I've read on numerous occasions that in France single pole mcbs can't be used. So I was very suprised when I saw that our local Bricomarche was selling them!

tony

[/quote]

You cannot do a new installation with them and have it pass the inspection by the CONSUEL but you can repair exisitng instalations

[Rtony]

Very confusing Anton.

So single pole mcbs are 'illegal' but they sell them in a national French supermarket!

Its 'illegal' to fit them into a new installation but if they are already fitted it's 'legal' to replace them with the same?

So it can't be 'illegal' to have them then?

Someone's taking the mick.

[Gluestick]

Not at all.

Old equipment can be replaced on a like-for-like basis.

The new regulations demand far higher attention to safety and balanced distrbution of loads.

It would be impossible, as already stated, to gain certification for a new installation if one used single pole MCBs.

However, a majority of existing, old, French wiring is potentially dangerous: and most old rural residential properties have simply added bits to what was effectively lighting wiring, as time marched on. Indeed, most of the oldsters in our village still call it the Lumiere, rather than electricity!

 

[Anton Redman]

Replacing a part, which has failed or is broken, in a home with the same thing is within the law but building a new home only to the standards which were in force 40 years ago is not allowed.

To use an anology An Austin A 30  will pass an MOT despite having only one central brake light and a single rather than a twin master cylinder. You can buy spares for an A 30 but you could not get type approval for a new car which did not meet the latest standards.

 

 

[Bassman]

[quote user="Anton Redman"]

Replacing a part, which has failed or is broken, in a home with the same thing is within the law but building a new home only to the standards which were in force 40 years ago is not allowed.

To use an anology An Austin A 30  will pass an MOT despite having only one central brake light and a single rather than a twin master cylinder. You can buy spares for an A 30 but you could not get type approval for a new car which did not meet the latest standards.

 

 

[/quote]

 

Beat me to it LOL I was going to use the pre 1964 seat belt thing [:D]

[Anton Redman]

Nice to have a posting from somebody who has read and understood the facts, I am intregued by the juxtapositon of Surrey and the End of theWorld

[Rtony]

There's a 1994 Memera 2000 consumer unit in our French house and has single pole mcbs in it.

Can I assume that it would be ok to add more single pole mcbs to it?

Tony

 

[Anton Redman]

[quote user="Rtony"]

There's a 1994 Memera 2000 consumer unit in our French house and has single pole mcbs in it.

Can I assume that it would be ok to add more single pole mcbs to it?

Tony

 

[/quote]

Best practise would be to replace with a new board and twin MCBs it is udoubtedly better to add more single pole MCBs than overload the exisitng wiring. It it were my own house I would probably do it but would check the installation had live and neutral the right way round first.

[Gluestick]

Totally agree about ensuring that the phase and return are correct!

My best mate has a place not too far away from us and despite a new Tableaux and new wiring, at least 50% of the neutrals test at over 100 volts![Www]

The chandeliere in the lounge is fun too: metal and gives you a "Buzz"![:-))]

I would also test the integrity of the earth connection: this seems to be something many older French houses don't seem to bother too much about..............................[blink]

Still, nothing like some real excitement to liven up one's life!

[Rtony]

Anton,

The CU & MCBs are wired as UK, so I presume thats OK. Unfortunately all the sockets are too ie the  live is on the left, and as the sockets you buy are now marked the other way I suppose I'll have to wire them and the plugs the other way round.

Tony

[Alcazar]

[quote user="Rtony"]

There's a 1994 Memera 2000 consumer unit in our French house and has single pole mcbs in it.

Can I assume that it would be ok to add more single pole mcbs to it?

Tony

 

[/quote]

AFAIK, that's an English make, as we have one here in the UK. Are you sure it wasn't put in by a previous UK owner who didn't kniow any better?

Alcazar

[Alcazar]

[quote user="Rtony"]

Anton,

The CU & MCBs are wired as UK, so I presume thats OK. Unfortunately all the sockets are too ie the  live is on the left, and as the sockets you buy are now marked the other way I suppose I'll have to wire them and the plugs the other way round.

Tony

[/quote]

Actually, live is on the right in a UK socket, as you look at it on the wall.........

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

Totally agree about ensuring that the phase and return are correct!

My best mate has a place not too far away from us and despite a new Tableaux and new wiring, at least 50% of the neutrals test at over 100 volts![Www]

I would also test the integrity of the earth connection: this seems to be something many older French houses don't seem to bother too much about..............................[blink]

Still, nothing like some real excitement to liven up one's life!

[/quote]

These is no spec (as such for live and neutral) they can be either way around, as long as it is consistent (and you don't cross over in the Tableau!) Legrand label their sockets differently to other manufacturers.

100V on the neutral? Measured to where? If to earth & you are using a digital multimeter (10Megohms input resistance) then it is inductive pickup from the live - touch it and you will feel nothing (because the voltage won't be there any more - Ohms law).

Earths? Why bother? Just knock 1/3rd off your wiring bill....

 

[Gluestick]

So are you saying, Nick, that the earth is not required?

Yes, it was measured across the Neutral and Earth. Yet not every one..............................

Thus what would you believe is the fault which created this anomoly, or if you like, could be, the fault?

Is it not possible that one appliance, which was sensitive to ensuring that the phase should be connected correctly, was in fact connected incorrectly?

Surely, the potential of the Neutral (relative to Earth) ought to be circa parity? (Since the Current Neutral conductor is tied to local Earth at the transformer of the sub-station).

Finally, what do your believe the French single phase mains voltage potential ought to be between Neutral and Earth?

[Nick Trollope]

Errr, no, that was a joke - actually more of a reflection on the state of most of our wiring..

I am not aware of any equipment or appliances that are Ph/N "fussy" (except 1950's TV's, where the chassis was bonded to N  - such things have been very illegal for years). As I said above, there is no real spec for L/N connections (in France - or the US, for that matter).

It is not a matter of voltage on the Neutral, it is a matter of energy - a huge voltage can exist with little energy (and it is the current and hence power that kills/does damage) - static electricity for one example. You are seeing a voltage on your N because the live wire runs alongside it for upteen metres and the two wires act like a transformer. Yes, the N may be connected to earth, but the resistance between your earth and the subs earth is large. Add the 10M resistance of your multimeter and you have (virtually) nil current - hence the high voltage. Trust me, touch the Neutral and you won't notice it (or shouldn't!!!).

BTW, if you add a load to this supply, you will find that the neutral voltage will drop to 0.

To answer your question, the voltage should be nil - in an ideal world. The fact that you are seeing a voltage reflects the fact that you are living in the real world.

HOWEVER, if you are in the least bit concerned, ask an Electrician with the proper test equipment to look at it for you.

 

[Gluestick]

Thanks for that, Nick.

As a matter of course, I tend to observe the Phase and Neutral connections with appliances, since the On-Off switch (if single pole) switches the phase. Or always used to: just habit now.

Interesting: my chum's wiring (the new wiring, new tableaux etc) with the high voltage on some bits of the circuit, also has another endearing characteristic!

Both of the new metal light fittings in the lounge give you a "Fizz" if you touch them! [+o(]

I had a metal-cased microwave at home once which did this: turned out to be duff insulation in the socket.

 

[Rtony]

Sorry, I meant right.[:$]