Is English worth €11,000?

[Collywobble]

Hi

I recently saw a home requiring medium type renovations on an English language immobilier website that appeals to me (the house, not the website)

A few days later I noticed the same home on a French site, (seloger.com?) with a different estate agents and it was €11,000 cheaper.

Three weeks later and they are both still listed. BTW the 'English language' company seem quick to flag thier homes as under offer, so I don't think it has been forgotten or anything.

I am trying to be tactful as the the English agents are active on this forum, so I guess I have the questions:

1) Is the French system similar to say the US/Canadian ones where estate agent 'A' can advertise a home and estate agent 'B' brings a buyer and they share the commission?

2) One of the sites shouldn't have the home advertised  (maybe the seller is playing funny buggers?)

3) Buyers get stiched up by €11,000 for the convenience not needing to explain the all the jokes in "Allo, Allo" to French people ?[:)]

cheers

[Babbles]

We noticed this when we were buying and the answer we got was along the lines of the immo who is selling at the lower price is more often than not in more frequent contact with the vendor so if thangs have been a bit slow could have reduced the price or, the actual selling price is the same but the immo's fees are different or many other reasons [:)] But if you like the house and have worked with the English speaking immo the price is always negotiable[;-)] As its often said on this forum its amazing how much English the French understand when your spending money[:P]

[Bob T]

I have seen this a few times, not only with agents that advertise on English sites but between French estate agents, not oftern €11K though. The commision goes to the agent that sells the house.

There are loads of people here who are trying to make a bit of extra money out of newcomers, and loads of them seem to be ex-pats themselves, but not all.

I found that coming here and finding a good local French estate agent is the cheapest option, they oftern speak a littleEnglish and are very helpful. Our local man sold a house to my sister in law for the advertised price and when we went to the Compomise de Vente, he had negotiated €8K off because they had not haggled. They were very pleased.

The other bonus is that he did all the electricity and phone change over and helps out with translations free of charge for years after.

[Will]

There are many reasons why a house can be advertised on different sites at different prices. Although 'maximising of fees' has been known with certain agencies (and notaires too, come to that - the only time I have actually witnessed the urban myth of different books for French and British buyers is in a notaire's office) it is nowhere near as widespread as people think.

All you need to do is point out to the agent that you have seen the house elsewhere at the lower price. The agent can then check with the seller.

The most likely reason is, as mentioned above, that the seller has reduced the price but not told all the agencies, this sort of thing happens all the time. Other genuine reasons are that not all agencies or notaires include their own fees in the advertised price. Several English-language agents show an 'all-inclusive' price, to include legal costs too, but these often do include a bit extra for the agent, so be careful. In some cases it can be the same house, but including different amounts of land or outbuidings (quite common for rural property, formerly part of a farm or similar). Not all agencies will go with the same valuation, either. Sellers can be greedy too, probably even more so that agents, and insist on a higher price with the agency that deals with 'the rich English'. There is no rule that says the house has always to be advertised at the same price, and only the agent that makes the sale gets the fee.

If it's a decent agent, mentioning it won't be a problem at all. They want buyers to be happy with their purchase, not to feel ripped off. If the agent gets nasty or tries to fudge the issue, then go elsewhere.

[Rodie]

hi how much was the property in total? some uk agent  have an after sales sevice that gets you water,electric ,and other sevices connected  and help you with other things up to 6 months after the sale ,but this is only about 2000euro

[Coco]

[quote user="Rodie"]hi how much was the property in total? some uk agent  have an after sales sevice that gets you water,electric ,and other sevices connected  and help you with other things up to 6 months after the sale ,but this is only about 2000euro[/quote]

Any decent French agent will expect to do this as a matter of course (and we went back to ours a lot longer than 6 months later and still got help).  I know of an immobilier who has two different books for the French and English.  The difference being that the English version has the price TTC (all charges, notaire, tax, agent included) whereas the French version is only FAI (Agent's fees included).  This was explained to me in that the French often like to use their own notaire whereas the English like it all provided for them so consequently the French price doesn't include notaire's fees and taxes - a bit like the Ryanair 1p flights - a way of pulling in the punters before you slap on the unavoidable costs!!

Incidentally, both books are displayed in clear view in the agency, so there is no attempt at deception or "ripping off the English".

[Bob T]

Rodie, if you had read my post you would have seen exactly that. My estate French agent does all that and has done for over 2 years now at no cost to me. €2000 is a bit of a "rip off the brit" scam if you ask me.

[Collywobble]

Those comments shed light on this, but even if the €11,000 includes all extras, doesn't it still seem a bit steep on a €33,000 (or €44,000) property?

[cooperlola]

Now that the percentage is evident, yes it does seem a bit of a p**s take!

[Collywobble]

[quote user="cooperlola"]Now that the percentage is evident, yes it does seem a bit of a p**s take![/quote]

My thoughts exactly [blink]

[Jc]

In the UK,we saw a house for sale in an agent's window,went and had a look at it and were going to buy it;on the way back to the agents,I saw the same house for sale in another agent's window at a lower price-guess which one we used.

[Collywobble]

[quote user="Jc"]In the UK,we saw a house for sale in an agent's window,went and had a look at it and were going to buy it;on the way back to the agents,I saw the same house for sale in another agent's window at a lower price-guess which one we used.[/quote]

To be honest, I didn't know that in the UK you could have a home with multiple agents.

We bought and sold four properties over the last ten years in Scotland and I never heard about it, or was this in England?

[Babbles]

I didn't think there were any properties left in that price bracket! One thing I did notice was that properties advertised on Green Acres (or those type of websites) were cheaper as it was often the vendor who advertised and already knocked the immo's fees off but you have to deal with the vendor yourself , but anything is possible with a translator (if your french is like mine isn't up to negotiating deals) which would work out cheaper than immo's fees even if you pay for the time to get them to help transfer over the utilities and stuff.

[Moorejw]

I recently showed a Dutch client a property that he wanted to buy - he told me that another local agent had it in their window at a lower price, so I agreed to sell at the lower price. The owner had forgotten to tell me that they had agreed to reduce the price and the other agent also has lower fees. The client was very happy, the owners were happy, and I was happy. Our agency does not make any surcharge whatever the nationality of the buyer, the price you see is the same for everybody, it would probably be illegal to do otherwise as the vendors sign a Mandat stating the sale price and the agency fees.

[Collywobble]

"it would probably be illegal to do otherwise"

So it wouldn't happen?[blink]

You sound honest, but I guess you are measuring others by your (decent) yardstick.

[Collywobble]

[quote user="Abs Turner"]I didn't think there were any properties left in that price bracket! One thing I did notice was that properties advertised on Green Acres (or those type of websites) were cheaper as it was often the vendor who advertised and already knocked the immo's fees off but you have to deal with the vendor yourself , but anything is possible with a translator (if your french is like mine isn't up to negotiating deals) which would work out cheaper than immo's fees even if you pay for the time to get them to help transfer over the utilities and stuff.[/quote]

There are hundreds. many seem ok, but whilst a picture says a thousand words, they are of the house and not the sewage plant/garage/steptoe & son yard next door. so I would think of the houses about 5% are what you want - taking into account personal preferences).

The pics I like are of internal/external AND of the street in general.  I always wonder why an agent puts in three pics of the livingroom, two of the kitchen and one of the bathroom, but none of the outside.[8-)]

Look on seloger.com (has an english option) or Yahoo.fr. select your region, property type and start with a price range of €1-€25000 the €25000-€50000 and so on

One of the problems with searching websites for properties, cars, etc  is that they sometimes (read very often) limit responses to 200 or 250 to protect the server from malicious attacks, so if you do a search for:

All property types (homes, land, garages...) in 24 between €0 - €1000000

There will often be too many to show and you will get a truncated listing. This of course varies from website to website, but in general if you make the search more granular, you will see more suitable properties.

cheers

[Rodie]

collywobble i think our barn was 59000 without fees and they were  6000euro so a total of 65000 euros   ,the total was 69000 euro with the notaires fees ,so 11000 euros is a rip off ,maybe my deal was a rip off too who knows ?

[Patf]

When we were searching last summer most of the properties we saw were on sale with multiple agents. One house we particularly liked the look of  on the internet turned out to have major structural problems ie the back wall falling down the hill. Only one of 4 agents mentioned this problem in his written description and his price reflected this. The others said they didn't know about it. Another house had a badly constructed roof ( hint from a local) and two agents hadn't noticed.You need to have your wits about you! Pat.

[Collywobble]

Rodie, still seems a considerable amount in relation to the purchase price, but I'm sure it was kosher

Patf, yep, an MOT would be nice, but kudos to the local [:)]

[Will]

[quote user="Collywobble"]"it would probably be illegal to do otherwise"

So it wouldn't happen?[blink]

You sound honest, but I guess you are measuring others by your (decent) yardstick.


[/quote]

The vast majority of agents in France are honest and decent - your veiled allegations that they are otherwise are untrue and unjustified.

[Babbles]

Well said Will, if you don't think a property is right don't buy it, and if it seems to good to be true it probably is!

[Collywobble]

[quote user="Will"]

[quote user="Collywobble"]"it would probably be illegal to do otherwise"

So it wouldn't happen?[blink]

You sound honest, but I guess you are measuring others by your (decent) yardstick.

[/quote]

The vast majority of agents in France are honest and decent - your veiled allegations that they are otherwise are untrue and unjustified.

[/quote]

Exactly. Please note that I did say "others", not "every agent" and yes it would be impossible for  100% of agents (of any nationality!) be of pure intent.

It was more of a comment on human nature, combined with a having observed a few remarks here about dodgey notaries.

I wasn't slagging French agents.  It was more of a comment on (French speaking) Brit's ripping off other (non-french-speaking/vulnerable) Brit's. Now tell me that doesn't happen?? (think Costa Del Sol timeshares,  Florida etc)[:P]

Beleive me, I have seen so many broken hearted people who HAVE been ripped of by their fellow countrymen who were estate agents.

So am I slagging all French agents?  no.   Am I suggesting that it is human nature for some people to pray on 'their own' people in a foreign land yes.

Cheers

[Collywobble]

[quote user="Abs Turner"]Well said Will, if you don't think a property is right don't buy it, and if it seems to good to be true it probably is![/quote]

I agree with your comment completely, which is why I ignore most advertising that says "do you want a free....", but I'm still not sure how my comment about the other post/agent who posted it being honest and my inference that some of her peers are not and how that relates to "if it seems to good to be true"[:D]

A 44k home did seem good value.How would I know it was too good to be true? or is the 33k too good to be true? you've lost me.

My cynical side (see previous comment) said to me that the British agent (44k vs 33k) was taking advantage of their potential english (only) speaking clients who they felt wouldn't trawl through French language real estate websites, which I still feel is a fair statement.

Again, I did not say all agents are crooks, I said others may not be as honest. A statement I still stand by.

BTW, the whole reason for the post was: why is the same house advertised with different prices? it was, after all a question that would help me avoid getting ripped off.

cheers

[Will]

Thanks CW.

I hope your original question has been answered OK, there are certainly several reasons given about the reasons for different prices.

If anybody is still in doubt, then any of the many decent and honest agents will, if you query the price difference, either explain it or get in touch with the seller to find out if the price has dropped or a lower valuation accepted, and no doubt adjust their price accordingly.

Of course not all agents are honest, and those that are honest are only too happy to have the rogues exposed for what they are.

I would take issue with the idea that this is something happens solely with agencies run by British people and selling to British people. I know of several French-run agencies, advertising to the British market, that offer houses at inflated prices. There are a couple, and this has been covered on this forum before, that make an extra charge, amounting to 50% of their fee, to clients referred to them trough UK-based agencies. Not quite the same thing, and of highly dubious legality, but it happens - and these are entirely French-run agencies.

I also know of British-based agencies that offered one particular house at an 'all-inclusive' price some 40,000€ higher than at Mrs Will's agency (French-registered but British/Dutch run). The legal fees would be about 8000€ top whack so that's over 30K extra on a sub-100,000€ house. Much the same 'difference' percentage-wise that CW refers to,.

So yes, there are crooks in the market, but most agents, British or French, are 100% kosher.

[Collywobble]

Will,

I'm glad that we seem to (more or less) be in agreement here. [:)]

Now that I see Mrs Will is an agent, I understand you taking umbrage at what you percieved as a broad brush generalisation.  I think its just part of the nature of forums that you don't have the advantage

of faces and voices, so the sentiment can be lost at times[:)]

I suspect that you are correct in your last sentence and my response to

Moorejw 

was meant to be more of a compliment to them than focusing on calling all agents crooks.

Personally, I have lost so much time &  money to agents [:@](some Brits included) over the past couple of years and I have even been asked to get involved in things like providing two invoices for work done to a clients rental/BTL property in order for me to be paid the real price (lower onee)  and the client to receive a copy of the larger bill  in order for the agent to pocket the difference and claim not to take anything for their time. I'm talking 20%, so it was a fairly big scam. The check was being written by the agent and charged to the clients account, or the scam doesn't work, of course. This is just one example, but I could go on for hours.[:P]

So, I guess I have a chip on my shoulder and defer to the cynical rather than benefit of the doubt when it comes to agents

Next...  [:)]

Cheers