Is English worth €11,000?

[Will]

No problem CW, we have been called plenty worse. Mrs Will used to work for the Revenue in Britain before she got a job with an estate agency in France so she is used to being called names - next job traffic warden? [;-)] 

I know exactly what you mean. I am sure you will have noticed that France is full of fiddling like the dual invoicing scam you mention above. It's partly human (and in particular French) nature, but more down to the restrictive practices and high charges of the system which encourages the black market and all sorts of other little earners 'outside the books'.

Even the so-called decent and honest people will do things to maximise their profits, though usually it's just a few euros rather than thousands. Most of the British are so trusting - having read on forums like this about how France is just like Britain of 40 years ago with respect for one another and not everybody looking after themselves - that they can easily be taken for a ride and most will never notice, so the fact that some people will take advantage, although not excusable, is understandable.

One needs a good dose of cynicism to deal with life, and people, in France (and other places) - not only estate agents. [:D]

[Llwyncelyn]

Will I am with you on this one and I am absolutely sure that CW has deeply held views (and based upon personal experience of Estate Agents/Immobiliers)  My experiences are in direct contrast with his.  Maybe I was a somewhat lucky.  However I have had in my perception truly unpleasant neighbours.  CW's experience may be different.  I may have had a wonderful meal in a restaurant someone else and who came the day later may have thought differently.

Here I am stepping into the lion's den and wonder if CW has had good or bad experiences with Lawyers for after the Estate agent in the UK come those guys who put it all together.  I am in the legal profession and here believe me that you do not litigate on a personal basis you never jamais.  Thus I used a fellow colleague to do my divorce it cost me £28000 in fees and the division of assets is something else.  I could have taken him by the throat and sorted it out for I believed in him and trusted him.  One of your own if you follow the meaning.

My wife and I are now embarking upon another purchase and in 16/17 my experiences here in France tell me that this is not a fluid market the properties are marketed wholesale and the vendor pulls lots of the strings and does not keep all or any of the immobiliers aware of his or her thinking.  He or she is only driven by obtaining the maximum value for their property.

I think I would do exactly that but with a proviso.  That being that my values and background would prohibit me deliberately trying to take advantage of another human being.  I play it tough for our assets have been acquired like most people after years of hard work.  I do not give those away but what I do is to be considerate polite and open (hopefully) in everything I do.  Thus I can sleep in my bed at night.

Nevertheless to run a business in France takes a hell of a lot of doing the overheads are huge.  If you have bills to pay families to look after mortgages or whatever sometimes and when faced with pressure you may not behave in a manner that you would normally do.

Again you may take a view that those guys from across the Manche are easy pickings and then you are in trouble.

In short in this country look after yourself.  Do the homework repeat the homework do it again and stand back and think once more.

Research research and research.

We already have a house here in France and I will just do what I think is necessary to protect any future investment in our new home. It has always been a collective approach.

Relationships are an old fashioned value and which are slowly disappearing in the UK.  Here forget it be aware that you have to protect yourselves and certainly on the house purchase front.

I have obviously gone on too long................sorry

[Llwyncelyn]

Moorejw 'the owner had forgotten to tell me that they had agreed to reduce the price and the other agent also has lower fees'

'So I agreed to sell at the lower price'

Moorejw I do hope (and I have no doubt that you did) only agreed after speaking to the vendor for the way you have posted your mail gives the incorrect impression that you had taken the decision unilaterally. Obviously you could have reduced your commissions to match the other price?

On this point can someone please tell me why in the UK (ok its the UK) fees range between .5% - 1.5% plus bits and bobs and here can vary between say 7% - 10% everyone knows the overheads the tax system the cotisations whatever so why the variation.  Is it a try on or does it truly represent the overheads of the immobilier.  e.g. more offices more staff better cars better standards of living or whatever.  There is not truly a huge variation in the UK but of course a huge throughput of property so that is probably the reason for the high dealing fees in France.

rdgs

[Collywobble]

Llwyncelyn, I know where you are coming from. I won't recommend restaurants to people anymore, as they always seem to have complaints that I can't understand[:)]

But, please understand my negative experiences with agents has never been as a consumer, but as a service provider within the industry. That said, two of my best friends are agents, so I'm not some sort of anti-agent bigot.

Actually, I'm just a schmuck trying to work out why there was €11,000 price difference on the sale prive of a house[:P]

cheers

EDIT:

Note the *** in the last sentence?  For some reason, the forum deems the word S-c-h-m-u-c-k to be offensive and changes it.  That's a bit OTT isn't it? It must be in every three stooges movie I have seen. Hardly an obscene word.

[Llwyncelyn]

I think the word is in common parlance and should not have been vetted especially as it was used with a direct reference to yourself.  However the t's and c's of this forum are there for us all to read and to comprehend and naturally to obey.

Indeed I think the word has a common usage within American and Jewish circles?

[Russethouse]

The forum comes with certain presets - that looks like one of them!

[Collywobble]

[quote user="Russethouse"]The forum comes with certain presets - that looks like one of them![/quote]

Well, that's just **** dandy *** then *** *** **** because **** with a **** *** ouch****, then again *** *** **** ***** *** inhumane *** *** couldn't sit for a week!!!

[:)]

[Jacqui Too]

[quote user="Llwyncelyn"]

On this point can someone please tell me why in the UK (ok its the UK) fees range between .5% - 1.5% plus bits and bobs and here can vary between say 7% - 10% everyone knows the overheads the tax system the cotisations whatever so why the variation.  [/quote]

Last summer we sold our house in excess of £375,000 and our bill from the agent was £7,672.00 which relates to 1.5% plus extras and VAT we thought that was expensive, but we could have gone with cheaper local agents but their valuations were much lower so we opted for a national up market firm who sold the house in good time and £40,000 more! We have now purchased a second home in France and paid 11,000 euros agenecy fees! In the UK agents tend to have sole selling rights, so they are certain to get the fee if it sells, they also probably sell twice as many houses, and they do little in the way of showing veiwers around the properties. Our agent only visited the property twice. Now as I believe in France  houses can be with many agents (ours I know was with 3 other agents that we know about) so the agent does not know if he will get any fees at all, winner takes all as it were, I asume they sell alot fewer houses! and they have to do lot of showing clients around, with days of fruitless appointments with clients that are often time wasters on holiday!

As I mentioned above our French house was with 4 agents, agents A & B were valued the same, agent C was 5,000 euros higher and agent D was 14,000euros higher, you can guess which agent we went to see the house through, and we still got a 30,000 euros reduction[:D] They all had agency fees included in their advertised price,  the property had been on the market for two years, so I would think that the vendor had maybe only informed agents A & B that he was prepared to lower his asking price? all agents were French with an English option on their web sites[blink]

 

Chipie

[Collywobble]

As I mentioned above our French house was with 4 agents, agents A & B were valued the same, agent C was 5,000 euros higher and agent D was 14,000euros higher, you can guess which agent we went to see the house through, and we still got a 30,000 euros reduction[:D] They all had agency fees included in their advertised price,  the property had been on the market for two years, so I would think that the vendor had maybe only informed agents A & B that he was prepared to lower his asking price? all agents were French with an English option on their web sites[blink]

 

Chipie, that is interesting. The scenario is a bit of a comparing apples with oranges and differences are to be expected to accommodate the local markets.

cheers

[Jacqui Too]

[quote user="Collywobble"]

As I mentioned above our French house was with 4 agents, agents A & B were valued the same, agent C was 5,000 euros higher and agent D was 14,000euros higher, you can guess which agent we went to see the house through, and we still got a 30,000 euros reduction[:D] They all had agency fees included in their advertised price,  the property had been on the market for two years, so I would think that the vendor had maybe only informed agents A & B that he was prepared to lower his asking price? all agents were French with an English option on their web sites[blink]

 

Chipie, that is interesting. The scenario is a bit of a comparing apples with oranges and differences are to be expected to accommodate the local markets.

cheers

[/quote]

[8-)] Which  bit is apples and oranges?

Chipie

[Collywobble]

[8-)] Which  bit is apples and oranges?

You described the UK and French (rural?) markets and how different they are and the corresponding effort from the agents.

Ergo, we aren't comparing apples with apples [:D]

[Jacqui Too]

[quote user="Collywobble"]
[8-)] Which  bit is apples and oranges?


You described the UK and French (rural?) markets and how different they are and the corresponding effort from the agents.

Ergo, we aren't comparing apples with apples [:D]


[/quote]

I think you may have missed the gist of my first post, Llwyncelyn askes 'can someone please tell me why in the UK (ok its the UK) fees range between .5% - 1.5% plus bits and bobs and here can vary between say 7% - 10% everyone knows the overheads the tax system the cotisations whatever so why the variation. I was merely useing my recent experience to high light what I thought might account for the different in fees.I had no intention of makeing a comparison.

Chipie

[Collywobble]

Chipie, You may not have intended to do a comparison, but in a way, that is what you did when you gave two examples.

So lets just say I found your noncomparative experience interesting..[:)]

[Llwyncelyn]

Hi Chipie  thanks for that.  We too faced the UK side from let us say asking three local agents to value our property.  I had known all three for well over twenty years and there was an added involvement due to my relationship with the law and thus I had acted for one of them in a civil issue.

Our instincts were that one of these and who had demonstrated to me over the years that he was a hungry fighter would get the business.  He did not and someone who we thought (and due to a myriad of reasons) would be less than impressive did...............and he not only obtained what he suggested but more on top. Here and just in case someone suggests a lack of ethics that could not be further from the truth its just that the purchaser fell in love with the house and the house had not even appeared in the press or in his window!

We bought our house in France in 2001 and only moved full time in 2005.

The problem now and as I see it and knowing the French mentality they will place their house with say three four or five agents and with the big open spaces here those agents could be in towns many miles apart.  Let us take Cognac there are smaller towns around it and these are some twenty to thirty miles away and any agent in any of those towns could be listing the same property and at differing prices.

I do hope that one is not faced with the leg work of identifying all the agents in the surrounding area and just doing the slog and leg work of research and carrying out a sifting exercise.

The web helps but my mind is now spinning and I am not sure if I have seen a certain property listed elsewhere.

All of this goes back to the original posting how can you possibly be certain that you are paying the 'best price' for even if you obtain a discount that does not necessarily mean that the discount is applied to the very lowest price that that house is offered to the market.

There are very logical sensible and much more intelligent individuals than I listed on this forum and I would ask for some help and guidance for I really want of course the best price but the thought of visiting far and wide say five agents is a bit daunting.

 

rdgs

 

[Jo]

When we bought our house last year, it was with 5 agents (that I knew of!) We went with an English language agency, but they got it for us at the lowest price that was advertised.

The prices ranged from 182,000 to 159,000!

Incidentally, all the agents we have had dealings with over the last two years have been brilliant and very helpful, whether English or French. Have we just been lucky?!

[Will]

Jo, you probably have been lucky - we hear plenty of tales of agents who do not come up to scratch (in fact I have just replied to an e-mail about that from another forum user). But as most agents in France, of whatever nationality, are helpful, professional and honest, then the chances of things going smoothly are really pretty good. It is, after all, in the agent's interest to keep the buyer or potential buyer, happy. In most cases it is the buyer who pays the fee, and the agents want their clients to be pleased with both their purchase and the service they received. Repeat business and recommendations count for a lot in house sales.

Of course, good service has to be paid for, and agencies have to charge fees. The fee structures are difficult to explain in a few words, and it is true that the basic job of selling and marketing a house doesn't vary much between countries. However, the buying process is totally different in England and France so direct comparisons are very difficult.

Perhaps the best way to explain it is to say that estate agency is a very competitive business in France, and it is in agents' interests to keep fees down, as this impacts considerably on the price paid by the buyer. As we see from this topic, buyers tend to favour the lowest price. About the lowest standard agency fee is around 4% - there is a chain offering this rate, and it may seem surprising they haven't cornered the market when the average fee is nearer to 7%. Notaires, who generally have lower costs etc, charge 2.5% to 5% (to which you must add 19.6% TVA, whereas agencies generally include TVA).

So although I would agree that the fees are high, there is little scope for substantial reductions. The buyer can always negotiate if the agency fee seems too high.There's very little room for movement on a cheap property, but there could be on a  more expensive house, as long as you go to the agent direct and not via an English referral agency, who take a very substantial percentage of the fee.

[Jacqui Too]

I think that we found a rare gem in our agent, he is French and speaks good English, after negotiating a good price for us he translated the first contract and helped us include 3 clause suspensives, 1. approval for a fosse septique. 2. Approval for a large terrace, new French doors in existing window openings, new front door opening, demolish two small pigsties. 3. Removal of all rubbish from the barns and buildings.

Clause 1. no problem

Clause 2. He filled in all the planning forms (a nightmare I believe) Liased with the DDE and a permis de construire was granted one week before we signed the final contract, this only took 2 days less than 2 months! We were absolutely amazed and would have been happy with confirmation that our plans would be accepted in principal as we had always been led to believe that these things take months to sort out!

Clause 3. He over saw all the removal of the rubbish personally (5 men, 10 lorry loads and a bonfire for 2days) he even went out on a Saturday after a request for beer!

He will be helping us get reconnected to water and electricity and has offered any other help we might need in the future

Now that’s what I call service

Chipie

[Collywobble]

Chipie, that's very impressive.

I once had a agent volunteer to put on her marigolds and scrub that bathrooms and paint the livingroom so the property could be rented out (I was overseas).

She did accept payment when offered, so your guy wins hands down.[:D] that was a considerable amount of work he took upon himself to manage.