Rusty Ironwork Zebrite and how to use

[Babbles]

I've bought 2 lovely scrolly ironwork antique armchairs (not dining chairs) which need renovating (yet another project! Sounds familiar!) They are covered in a very fine layer of rust, the wheels still roll and there is small areas of oxide paint still on the arms, what I need to know is how much of this do I need to remove and with what before I use black lead ( zebrite substitute) I don't want to paint them and still want them to look antique as I don't like over restored things ( and they were a bit of an extravagance ) or they could end up looking like the ones from Unipiu, any ideas

[Gluestick]

If you intend anyone to actually sit in them then do not use graphite paste: as this is what all fire-grate polishes are.

It will easily rub onto clothes: and then not come out!

Best way to restore is to firstly go over surface with a wire brush - a rotary brush in an electric drill is good - then paint with anti-rust treatment, most of which is Phosphoric acid, which will turn the surface black.

Thereafter, paint with matt black paint.

If you leave them bare, then they will continually rust.

You could try matt lacquer after the rust treatment, instead of paint.

 

 

[Babbles]

Thanks Gluestick, I don't want them back but to still look metal, so the lacquer could be the answer but the question is what do I look to buy, there is a very good specialist paint shop in Auch which has everything I didn't know I needed but I wouldn't know what to ask for. When I've used zebrite in the past if you buff it too a sheen it doesn't rub off, but you have to get every last bit of it buffed and its a pain as you have to keep redoing it.

[Gluestick]

I have as yet never looked for rust treatment compounds in France. so far.

In the UK I use mainly Locktite rust treatment (expensive but good and it's also thixatropic: i.e. like jelly); I have also used Jenolite and Naval Jelly and I suppose over the years, Jenolite.

These people could help you, I'm sure as they export.

http://www.silmid.com/products/index.asp?product=SURA06

Lacquer: Not really important. Probably clear acrylic.

 

[Meg]

You could try with either a wax or oil. Both will need reapplying occasionally, but if it's inside and stays dry shouldn't be too much of a problem. Loads of options, one recipe for example is a mix of beeswax and linseed oil heated up, but you can experiment. Even just normal vegetable oil could be used. Also some wax based furniture pastes /shoe polish...etc. etc As long as it has wax or oil in it.

Personally i like to use beeswax or grate polish on indoor metal.

[Pierre ZFP]

If these chairs are really old ie more than about 100 years or so, they will either be cast iron or proper wrought iron in which case I'm very envious (any chance of some pics?) in either case they will be made from iron which is very unrefined, in fact its not much more than the ore it was mined from.  If you look closely with a strong magnifying glass you may even see the grain. Yes, this kind of iron does have a grain.  The brilliant thing about it is that because of all the slag in it, it doesnt rust much and will last forever (nearly), just have a look at Ironbridge in Staffs.  So just as Meg or Mog or possibly the Dog said, beewax and linseed oil, aply sparingly with a cloth then a stiff brush just like you were polishing a pair of shoes.  it will give a fantastic finish

[Gastines]

Many years ago I used to get a blacksmith to make up garden chairs/kidney shaped settees and porters chairs using old horseshoes.I had hundreds at the time,another story. The first one I tried Zeebrite,a definate no no. I even tried sealing it with cellulose laquer. In the end I used to red lead them and paint them white. Cobsidering this was about 35 years ago, they obviously stood the test of time as I saw one in a French Interiors magazine standing in the corner of a bedroom.

Regards.

[Gluestick]

Doesn't really matter what you use provided no one plans to sit on the chairs!

Linseed oil: hmmm takes for ever to dry out on "sealed" wood (i.e. french polished). On metal it would take an awful long time.

I only hope a visiting lady in a pink jacket doesn't fancy sitting on the chair!

After trying all sort so treatment for cast iron trivets, cobblers hobs, flat irons, cast iron bath feet, grates, fireplaces and so on, I like the flat black effect provided by rust treatment (some better than others) and flat black paint. Expensive but aerosol cans of VHT black (used for painting high temp components like car exhausts) gives an excellent finish. I used this when I made a large conventional BBQ two years ago. Stored in the workshop over Winter and no rust showing yet.

Agree about the Red Oxide/Zinc Chromate paint and lacqered paint finish, Gastines. I tend to use Hammerson's Smoothrite. Again, it's expensive, but looks almost as good as stove enamelling if applied carefully and lasts for years.

 

 

[Babbles]

First go at inserting a pic, here goes[8-)]

[IMG]http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x190/Miss_Babs_photos/chairsforum.jpg[/IMG]

Edit

Hurrah!!!!!!!! The slates are made of wood

[Pierre ZFP]

They're nice!  Judging from what I can see from the ends of the scrolls they are proper hot-worked and forged.  Nicely done and simple clean design. I would say 1930's as before that they would be much more ornate, at least they would be if in England, not so sure about France.  I would go with the previos suggestion of Smoothrite, not the hammer finish please [+o(] not on these lovely chairs, and yes, I am very envious!

[Gastines]

Interesting Pix. They almost look like cut down French cots, perhaps made to match the style? I'll have to dig out a pic of the horseshoe jobs. There may be a budding metalworker/blacksmith who could make a few bob doing them as a sideline? At the time I couldn't get them made quick enough. Another bright idea ,I used to buy the old cast iron roof pinnacles off Victorian houses being demolished,cut the threaded part off the base and get a stand brazed onto the back to make them into fire-dogs. The german and dutch dealers used to buy as many as I could get.  Unfortunately,I'm still trying to make my first million,or few thousand would do.

Regards.

[Gluestick]

Nice furniture Miss B!

The end scrolls beside the seats; are they riveted through or welded? Top and bottom?

My wife used to own a small antique business in a fleamarket and we used to sell lots to shippers and the rest to retail punters.

In  my spare time, I was always poking round for stock, as house clearances were becoming scarce (1975/6).

I did eventually find a very wonderful pikey (scrap merchant), in an older part of town where lots of Victorian terraces were demolished and some later re-furbed. Builders and demolition contractors are not usually noted for their artistic appreciation and to them brass letterboxes etc were scrap and their beer money! Bought some wonderful letterboxes, door knobs and knockers as well as all sorts of "Scrap" metal. Door handles, light switch escutcheons, even brass inkwells!

Loads of cast and wrought iron too.

[Babbles]

I'm not in France till next week so can't check on how they're made. I too thought they looked like cut down cots but the proportions are a bit different, but if I had the skill I would cut down cots and make chairs! as I said they were an extravagence! but still not as dear as the new ones at Unipui. Hopefuly I'll get them sorted while I'm over and I'll take some pictures of the finished job. Intersting that you thought they're 1930's I'm not very good at guessing the age of French antiques and didn't have much of a clue.

Friends who are in the Antique trade now say business is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaddddddddddd too many cheap Chinese imports, I used to deal in Antique clothing whist I was still at school going round Fairs with my Dad who dealt in Victorian watercolours but thats 25years ago the fairs today seem either full of tat or very expensive

http://www.unopiu.fr/html/catalogo_liv3.php?id=208 This is the modern version

[IMG]http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x190/Miss_Babs_photos/unopiuchair.jpg[/IMG]

[Gastines]

Gluestick. Obviously we had the same EYE. From the late 50's to about mid 70's my main employment was as a Self employed carpet -fitter but I also always had a small antique/general shop on the go.Usually only open at weekends. When doing my normal trade I used to go all over the area of Bournemouth/Poole and most of Dorset and this was when the Victorian quality houses were being demolished and square blocks of flats were going up. I had a good thing going with several Demo contractors as I used to pay cash up front and take everything out myself,sometimes with another pair of hands. I would have a go at anything from the usual fireplaces/lamp-posts/brass fittings.to marble columns and loads of stained glass windows. The most  spectacular piece being a stained glass ceiling in a caste iron frame depicting the Nordic gods[Thor,The Revellers/Odin etc. Those were the days. Even managed to strip out several lovely churches[with permission] and had quite a few accidents in the process. I find that the trade has died a death now and what is available is priced beyond reason.

 Sorry if we are hi-jacking the thread.

Regards.

[Dave&Olive]

hi

ok   have you tried a citric acid bath , it removes rust and leaves a hard shell finnish

         dave

[Gluestick]

To continue with the highjack [:D] we collected Victoriana from the time we were married, in the mid-60s.

The shop was a natural extension.

I used to haunt secondhand shops: in those days, pre-boot sales, there were quite a number and some could yield astounding stuff, simply because the owner didn't know what it was worth.

I even finished up from one of my regular shops, with a Boer War Enfield Arsenal British Army single shot rifle with a rising block breech! Apparently had been squirelled away in some old chap's attic for years...............

After copious soakings in paraffin and graphite, the cleaning rod freed and the breech mechanism worked again. I had to de-activate it and sold it to a regular customer who had a novelty pub, chock full of antiques.

Happier days.............

 

 

[Babbles]

Dave, I'm bring a bit dim here but what is a citric acid bath and hoe do you do it has it anything to do with lemons[:)]

[Pierre ZFP]

Nice furniture in the link you gave but I have to say it's not a patch on yours.  The new stuff is largely machine made and electric welded together.  Your chairs are hand made by a Smithy working over a hot forge and using a hammer and anvil.  Much respect to the craftsman and enjoy your find - whatever it cost!

edit :  I don't know what a citric acid bath is either (apart from being a whole load of citric acid I suppose) or how is works

[Gluestick]

To restore any ferrous metal object (i.e. steel or iron) it is necessary to either dissolve the surface rust or change its chemical compound.

Rust is simply Iron Oxide (Fe2O3).

(Edited: For some reason after writing down the formulae I mis-typed it!.[:$] Thanks to Pierre!)

The main approach used is Phosphoric acid,  which is H3PO4.

The resultant compound -Iron Phosphate - is Fe2 PO4 (I think!).

Some Phosphoric Acid contains Citric Acid: this is used for hydroponics for some reason.

Plating shops use Muriactic Acid (Hydrochloric Acid) for stripping and cleaning meatls prior to plating.

Personally, I would stick with a proprietory rust treatment, taking the usual care (eyes, skin) when using acid.

 

[Pierre ZFP]

Phosphoric acid is H3PO4

It reacts with Iron(III)oxide (rust) to form iron phosphate which is a black compound soluble in water and so you can just wash rust off.  Not sure I would apply it to very old ironwork as you might just dissolve the whole thing.

I know it's used in horticulture but probably best not to directly apply rust remover to your tomatos.

Still don't know about the citric acid though

[Dave&Olive]

hi

 ok try here

                 http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/jThompson/restore/removeRust/

                        dave

[Pierre ZFP]

That's brilliant! (no pun intended)

[Gastines]

The chemical formulae reminded me of my chemistry teachers only joke.

Poor boy,

he is no more,

for what he thought was H20

Was H2SO4

Regards.

[Babbles]

The only question is how on earth do I find a vessel that fit the chairs in! I'm also a bit concerned that the slats are wood and the tool man says remove any wood but the result would be perfect. Do you think it would work by wrapping a swab around the ironwork and if that would work would I just use cotton wool on a roll or something similar? questions questions! Also is citric acid called citric acid in France? Can't wait to get over to France to give it a go.

[Meg]

Miss Babs, i don't think they'll need such treatment. A wire brush and should be enough. Get a tiny one for tight bits. Maybe some wet and dry paper to finish. Do it wet and get it really clean. Dry it really well and then apply some beeswax and linseed oil as already said.

It'd be a huge shame to paint them.