Warning

[jondeau]

[quote user="Mutiara"]

Well if my house was vacant and the mains stopcock was off, then with a mains pressured French system the most water I would have to deal with would be a few litres in the event of a burst pipe.

With a loft based water storage tank, if there is a burst in one of the pipes coming out the tank then you are going to get 250litres plus (or more) of water damage - enough to bring down ceilings and do a lot more damage.

I would also mention that if an English system is installed it is likely that Uk sourced copper pipe, and soft soldering has been used,- two combinatons that give a muc weaker joint in the event of a freeze.

 

[/quote]

Mutiara old chap I really must take issue with you on this...........

In my experience most (if not all) burst pipes occur in the middle of the pipe not on the joints......a correctly soldered joint is is probably stronger than the pipe itself........soft solder is a relative term, in a correctly soldered joint the (soft) solder actually penetrates the atomic structure of the copper and totally welds  the two surfaces together

Soft solder is nowadays used widely in France.

The French have lagged behind the rest of the world as far as plumbing goes for a great many years and many an old French plumber will drag out his old oxy-propane torch and make a great show of spending all morning  brazing a single joint whilst his his UK counterpart will have have installed a bathroom suite and kitchen sink and gone off for lunch.

 

 

 

 

[Chancer]

Well my experience differs!

My property had been abandoned and derelict for 8 to 10 years, when I switched on the water and repaired the first leak it led me to the 2nd and so on for several days.

It was part brazed copper, part soldered but with the high temp silver lead free type, the brazed joints were mainly where the plumber had made his own unequal tee branches for WC cisterns etc.

All but one of the leaks were where the soldered joints had parted company, one soldered elbow had ruptured and all of the brazed joints were fine.

Personally I solder using the high temp lead free one but I can see why some would want the security of brazed joints.

[LesFlamands]

 

In my experience most (if not all) burst pipes occur in the middle of the pipe not on the joints ..news to me.....a correctly soldered joint is is probably stronger than the pipe itself ..rubbish........soft solder is a relative term, in a correctly soldered joint the (soft) solder actually penetrates the atomic structure of the copper and totally welds  the two surfaces together ...complete rubbish

Soft solder is nowadays used widely in France... is it?

The French have lagged behind the rest of the world as far as plumbing goes for a great many years and many an old French plumber will drag out his old oxy-propane torch and make a great show of spending all morning  brazing a single joint whilst his his UK counterpart will have have installed a bathroom suite and kitchen sink and gone off for lunch

Sorry, but French plumbing has been way ahead of the UK for many years. The UK is just catching up.

[BIG MAC]

The wall thickness in an end feed capillary joint is effectively double that of the tube. In  soft soldering  the solder acts as a jointing medium  the exposed area being miniscule in section and the length of the joint deep if you get my drift. Brazing involves fusion of metals so technically stronger (Although brazing can make the adjacent area brittle) but to what degree does domestic plumbing need to be 'Strong'? Is soft solder or brazing a major contributor in failure of domestic plumbing systems when the operating cause is freezing of water within the system? Poor design, poor execution of design, poor lagging all may contribute the method of jointing is rarely the problem. Do French Normes or Insurers insist upon one method over the other in domestic systems? Would an Insurer accept the design liability inherent in such an edict? Insurers may try and follow up a liability claim against a trades person who executed work poorly and there is a consequential loss. I would imagine the burst pipes discussed here would be dealt with as escape of water from fixed installation. Fitness for purpose in a 17 year old installation not neccessarily proven but certainly the installation was outside the ten year defects liability period associated with many French trades. Would the Insured neccessarily have any knowledge whether the system was Normes compliant? French Plumbing is not ahead of British in any appreciable form. The skills and techniques are not as dissimilar as they are in electrical installations. Mains pressure cylinders and direct fired water heaters have been available in the UK for years.

[jondeau]

Errr.........JR, I did say correctly soldered joints........

 

Charles........I should stick to discussing something you actually know about in future.

 

 

[Chancer]

[quote user="jondeau"]

Errr.........JR, I did say correctly soldered joints........

[/quote]

 

Dont get your drift.

Are you saying that using leaded soft solder in france is correct?

[BIG MAC]

Most will be using lead free I should imagine

[jondeau]

I was refering to making the joints correctly.........the solder is irrelevent.

Soft leaded solder for gas and heating systems, soft lead free solder for potable water supplies.......

 

 

 

 

 

[powerdesal]

Just to throw this in.....because I can!

I prefer compression fittings or per / pex.

I dont trust my soldering and my welding is crap as well/

[BIG MAC]

Y'Know I would love to have 10p for every capillary joint I have made up over the years. I cannot imagine a circumstance where I would be looking for leaded solder other than when producing a 'wiped' joint to an old lead service and these are now few and far between, when you do see them they will be in old external toilets etc.

Trying to get back on thread did the system fail as a consequence of poor jointing regardless of method used or did it fail because of freezing water imposing loads upon a system which had performed adequately up to that point?Most Insurers in the UK will pay out in these circumstances I cannot comment re French Insurers.

 

[UlsterRugby1999]

[quote user="Val_2"]

Strike a nerve did I?

[/quote]

Hardly - you simply reminded me that there are still some stupid and, possibly, ignorant/arrogant people who have come over here. Sadly for the rest uf us.

Why would anyone come to France, ask a French artisan (I assume they at least had the whit to do that) to install into a French house, a system of which he would have been both ignorant of and not qualified to install. That, in itself is plain stupid and/or arrogant to believe that the English system was far superior to the French, and furthermore, it would have presumably proved more expensive as it would most likely have taken the guy longer.

But then to come onto a public forum and castigate him as being a bodger - despite what was said earlier, that his work cannot have been that bad as it had worked for 17 years. For 17 years the system had wintered fine yet when they go off, most likely without having taken sensible precautions, and return to a horrible sight, they, and you, leap onto his back in condemnation. Poor fellow - its no wonder the world is in the mess its in.

Pity your neighbours (or you if you are so concerned about them) hadnt had the sense to have the house checked, protected and secured.

[LesFlamands]

[quote user="jondeau"]

Charles........I should stick to discussing something you actually know about in future.

[/quote]

Thanks for your advice, I am actually a qualified engineer and have been a registered, insured plumber in France for the past 17 years - how about you?

[pachapapa]

It was an extended cold period; yesterday I saw a water consumption recorder located inside a barn in a pit 1 metre deep below an inspection cover; beautifully split in two and held together by a block of ice.

After 17 years of residence it might be presumed that reference to one week weather forecasts would be on the diurnal TV menu; TF1 give evening weekly forecasts, every night.

The OP mentions that the owners of the dwelling were cognisant of the "english installation" which aggravated the risk of damage. It would appear that no mention of this situation was communicated to the insurance company, constituting a breach of their contractual duty. The contract would therefore be null and void as  to be equitable, the law imposes a duty of 'uberrima fides'(utmost good faith) on both parties to the contract.

[Le Plombier]

I would have thought the insurance issue is over the system installed and has nothing to do with the methods of jointing

There is no mention of how the water is heated but if it is by a solid fuel appliance then the insurers would not pay as open vented systems do not comply with the safety requirements of the regulations

I am astounded at some of the comments in regard to soldering

Someone knows what they are talking about and the rest clearly do not

With the exception of gas supplies at pressures over 40mbar which legally must be soldered with brazure forte there is nothing in any of the regulations that stipulates brazure forte must be used on any service

Despite popular belief French plumbers do frequently use soft solder

In regard to the comments about burst pipes I totally agree with the comment that the pipe will burst before the joint will fail when soft solder is used for jointing

This is the result you will get every time provided the soft soldered joint has been properly made. The problem is that the joint has to be properly prepared and then correctly soldered to achieve a proper joint, a skill that evades most amateurs and , unfortunately some of my professional counterparts as well

The problem with brazure forte, whilst the tensile strength of the joint is much greater, is again soldering correctly. In a lot of cases far too much heat is applied with the result the copper is annealed to the extent it is soft and pliable and it loses it's tensile strength. In this event it is common to see the fitting split, particularly bends split on the back when freezing occurs

Soldering, whether hard or soft solder is a task which requires a lot of skill in order to achieve a proper joint

I am a practising plumber in France, also registered for gas installations, I hold corporate membership of The Chartered Institute of Building Services Engineers and I am a registered Incorporated Engineer and I can assure you that I do know what I am talking about

Le Plombier

 

[steve]

well, I have just got back from opening a house for an oil delivery for the heating (which was left on when he left in Jan) and a mains pressure water pipe had broken in his loft bring the ceiling in his hallway down, and he has had gushing water since it thawed out - it was well lagged - we spent most of the afternoon mopping up - believe it or not he had a power cut last year between our visits and his central heating pipes froze - when we eventually managed to get EDF to sort out the electric and got the boiler working his lounge ceiling came down!

Steve

[pachapapa]

Curious but off topic.  On your site the diagonal black snow falling suffers instantaneous thaw if it gets closer than 15,586 mm to my cursor?[:)]

[steve]

eh? snow???

steve

[BIG MAC]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

It was an extended cold period; yesterday I saw a water consumption recorder located inside a barn in a pit 1 metre deep below an inspection cover; beautifully split in two and held together by a block of ice.

After 17 years of residence it might be presumed that reference to one week weather forecasts would be on the diurnal TV menu; TF1 give evening weekly forecasts, every night.

The OP mentions that the owners of the dwelling were cognisant of the "english installation" which aggravated the risk of damage. It would appear that no mention of this situation was communicated to the insurance company, constituting a breach of their contractual duty. The contract would therefore be null and void as  to be equitable, the law imposes a duty of 'uberrima fides'(utmost good faith) on both parties to the contract.

[/quote]

"the insurers are not paying out because the system did not conform to french normes of plumbing and heating water. This is a good example of why the UK system is not used here and a proper chauffe-eau if preferable and why you should never use a ferry-qualified bodger on the cheap"

Did the system fail to comply with the standardes and normes of 17 years ago? Is there a French equivalent of a Local Authorities Compliance clause in the contractof Insurance?  Uberrimae Fidae in this sense may be regarded as 'Acting in good faith'  we do not know at this stage if there was any intent on the Policyholders part to prejudice the Insurer's position, we do not know that were a 'Conventional' French system installed that it would not also have failed and the same operating clause under the policy become active. It could be argued that unless there were specific endorsements upon the policy prohibiting the use of a vented system (If that is what failed) then there was no wrongdoing. As I said I suspect most reasonable Insurers in this country would view this as a valid claim and not seek to repudiate under Uberrimae Fidae as after 17years it would be difficult to prove any intent to cause loss. One generally cannot benefit under an Insurance Policy as a consequence of their own illegal act however breaches of building codes are not neccessarily criminal and in this case were not carried out by the Party to the contract, they could argue that the installer was 'as far as they were aware' competent in this type of installation and assured them it was ok. The  Policyholders may not have paid the person to do the work or may have carried out elements themselves, would you like to hazard a guess as to how many EOW claims resulting from DIY are paid out on each year in the UK? French Insurance Regulations may well differ to the UKs and it may be that specific exclusions or endorsements apply and are operational in this case. In the UK it costs Insurers about £400 to 'win' a Policyholder they recognise this and for that reason don't want to get the reputation as 'the lot that don't pay out' Client retention is important here whereas in France there is less movement between Insurers this may tempt the companies to be a little firmer when adjusting loss.

[pachapapa]

Uberrima fides is a tad more than good faith. My thoughts turn to the 250 litre tank in the roof space and was this disclosed to the insurer

.Quote Institute of Insurance

Non-disclosure is a breach of utmost good faith occuring when one party to the contract knows a fact that the other does not.   Had the other party known about this fact, they either would not have entered into the contract or negotiated their own better terms.

PS Uberrimae Fidae; use of the genitive is of course acceptable but I fancy with respect to the declension, it might be Fidei.

[cooperlola]

Bloomin' 'eck.  Plumbing and Latin lessons in the same thread.

[woolybanana]

What is a frozen big end in Greek, Coops?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="woolybanana"]What is a frozen big end in Greek, Coops?[/quote]When I next bump into a Greek, I will ask.

[LesFlamands]

[quote user="Le Plombier"]

With the exception of gas supplies at pressures over 40mbar which legally must be soldered with brazure forte there is nothing in any of the regulations that stipulates brazure forte must be used on any service

True, it is, however, recommended for hot water pipes and central heating circuits

Despite popular belief French plumbers do frequently use soft solder

They do but not as frequently as brazing - especially copper to copper

In regard to the comments about burst pipes I totally agree with the comment that the pipe will burst before the joint will fail when soft solder is used for jointing

Not in my experience with French thick wall pipe although the back of elbows often split first as the wrong type has been used (especially 22mm and bigger where elbows are available in two grades for waste and pressure - the waste fittings are now, thankfully, harder to find)

This is the result you will get every time provided the soft soldered joint has been properly made. The problem is that the joint has to be properly prepared and then correctly soldered to achieve a proper joint, a skill that evades most amateurs and , unfortunately some of my professional counterparts as well

The problem with brazure forte, whilst the tensile strength of the joint is much greater, is again soldering correctly. In a lot of cases far too much heat is applied with the result the copper is annealed to the extent it is soft and pliable and it loses it's tensile strength. In this event it is common to see the fitting split, particularly bends split on the back when freezing occurs

Sufficient heat to braze the joint is also sufficient to anneal the copper. I agree if to much heat is applied then often the whole length of pipe becomes soft. If the pipe is carefully annealed it can be bend using a pipe bender. This avoids using an elbow joint and is also a larger radius bend which reduces the 'pressure' from expansion when the water freezes to some extent

[/quote]

But we all use PER and Multicouche now!

[Le Plombier]

I never use PER, it is rubbish and looks like s##t when run on surface

Most of my work is Oventrop Multicouche which is an excellent system, I have yet to experience a leak on a crimped joint

But I still do a lot of soldered work as well, particularly on gas pipework

Le Plombier

[Chancer]

[quote user="BIG MAC"][quote user="pachapapa"]

[/quote]

Did the system fail to comply with the standardes and normes of 17 years ago? Is there a French equivalent of a Local Authorities Compliance clause in the contractof Insurance?  Uberrimae Fidae in this sense may be regarded as 'Acting in good faith'  we do not know at this stage if there was any intent on the Policyholders part to prejudice the Insurer's position, we do not know that were a 'Conventional' French system installed that it would not also have failed and the same operating clause under the policy become active. It could be argued that unless there were specific endorsements upon the policy prohibiting the use of a vented system (If that is what failed) then there was no wrongdoing. As I said I suspect most reasonable Insurers in this country would view this as a valid claim and not seek to repudiate under Uberrimae Fidae as after 17years it would be difficult to prove any intent to cause loss. One generally cannot benefit under an Insurance Policy as a consequence of their own illegal act however breaches of building codes are not neccessarily criminal and in this case were not carried out by the Party to the contract, they could argue that the installer was 'as far as they were aware' competent in this type of installation and assured them it was ok. The  Policyholders may not have paid the person to do the work or may have carried out elements themselves, would you like to hazard a guess as to how many EOW claims resulting from DIY are paid out on each year in the UK? French Insurance Regulations may well differ to the UKs and it may be that specific exclusions or endorsements apply and are operational in this case. In the UK it costs Insurers about £400 to 'win' a Policyholder they recognise this and for that reason don't want to get the reputation as 'the lot that don't pay out' Client retention is important here whereas in France there is less movement between Insurers this may tempt the companies to be a little firmer when adjusting loss.

[/quote]

But its not the UK BigM.

The bits in blue just dont wash over here, one cannot argue with a body that is not prepared to listen or negotiate and that has no fear and nothing to lose,  their appointed expert (loss adjuster) says no and therafter there is bu**er all you can do, no ombudsman, no small claims or county court tribunals.

I would like to think that if the policyholders spoke good French then thay would have a better chance to put their case but in my experience French people, who clearly could argue their case, rarely if  never challenge authority be it the G men, insurance companies, agents or the shop assistant who says no you cannot have your money back for this unuseable product.