Nice Light Switches

[HoneySuckleDreams]

Does anyone know where you can buy "nice" light switches?  The only ones I can find that come close to being acceptable are the Legrand Segano line.  In the UK you can have literally 1000's of different designer types... copper back plates "Georgian" brass , wood etc.  This is chic france afterall, and I can't image all those nice Parisian appartments having BricoDepot white plastic switches.  I'm tempted to buy from the UK, but as it will have BS rather than NF stamped on it, I'm a little reluctant.

[Catalpa]

There are no nice light switches in France. Chic France is a myth. You've seen the wallpaper. [:-))] Wait till you start looking at ceiling "roses". Ugly or what.

UK light switches are a no-no because the wiring is different. You may decide you don't care and do it anyway and that won't be a problem unless you have a fire (insurance probably won't pay out) or if you want to sell to a French person. Should you find yourself similarly challenged by ceiling fittings, most of those are CE marked regardless of the country they're purchased and can be used in France even if they are not marked NF.

[suein56]

Hi there

We tend to use Leroy Merlin as it is the nearest Brico to us - they have a few options:

Long link edited out - see link Cassis has put in the post below this one.

Sue

[Cassis]

I've shortened Sue's link

Leroy Merlin

They were my first thought as well, but the site was taking so long to load I gave up, so I haven't checked what they have.

Any chance of editing your post, Sue?  [:D]

[suein56]

[quote user="Cassis"]I've shortened Sue's link

Leroy Merlin

Any chance of editing your post, Sue?  [:D]
[/quote]

I'd love to but I cannot make the shortened link transfer to my post.

Sue

[Cassis]

All I did was type 'Leroy Merlin' then select that text, click on the link icon above the box (the little world and chain) and paste in your link.  If it doesn't work for you, maybe you could delete the wazzer long string and replace it with "see link copied into following post" or something.

[Catalpa]

Post now irrelevant. [kiss]

[Ford Anglia]

I'm slowly but surely replacing all my older light switches and sockets with Legrand, and any new ones are Legrand from the word "go".

I agree, not chic, but they work well......

And I also agree that French chic is a myth.......rather like Italian design[;-)], and German engineering[;-)][;-)]

[bixy]

Phew! I'm glad I saw this thread. I was going to buy British light switches and take them over. Can anyone tell me why they will not work? Also, to confess my ignorance, I've often seen those marks CE and NF but what exactly do they mean?

Patrick

[Dick Smith]

Normes Françaises and a Euro standard - not sure what that one stands for. Like a kitemark I suppose, or DIN in Germany.

[Wozza]

The CE mark is a 'European Certificate' and everything manufactured in Europe is supposed to bear a CE mark to enable it to be sold, whatever it is - from a kids toy to an oil refinery! It is supposed to ensure that all manufacturers have carried out a design review to ensure that the goods being sold are safe and fit for purpose.

There are two options when selling goods - they must either be stamped with the CE logo (generally used for mass produced goods) or provided with a CE certificate (smaller batch processes, or where the same goods are also sold in the non-European market), or both (common with electrical appliances and machinery). You should not be able to buy any manufactured product in Europe without one or the other.

[Loiseau]

[quote user="catalpa"] Wait till you start looking at ceiling "roses". [/quote]

WHAT ceiling roses? 
Our electrician, on a new-build, didn't put in a single one. Just flex and lampholder hanging from a hole in the wooden T&G ceiling. My husband put in all the ceiling roses...

Angela

[powerdesal]

I've never found any ceiling roses in France. I resorted ( rightly or wrongly) to importing them from UK ( Screwfix).

[Catalpa]

I quite like the Arnould range. They're similar to what our electrician eventually sourced for us.

Ceiling roses are available from the lighting areas in the bricos but they tend to be ugly, white plastic domed things... or occasionally silver plastic. I have seen brass fittings but they're sort of scalloped, domed and still ugly. I was in IKEA in Bristol a few months ago and I was surprised to see a lot of their ceiling fittings are domed plastic so maybe it's the UK that's different and most of mainland Europe have the plastic thingies as the norm.

We bought ours from the UK - brushed chrome (or maybe steel) and CE marked. Simpler, smarter and cheaper than the French domed things.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="powerdesal"]I've never found any ceiling roses in France. I resorted ( rightly or wrongly) to importing them from UK ( Screwfix).
[/quote]

Ceiling "roses" are available in France - their use is mandatory nowadays. Problem is, a UK rose is suited to the UK wiring system, where the light circuit is part of a ring (with switch wiring going to the rose); this is not allowed in France, so a French rose has only 3 connections. (There are exceptions to these rules, but the boxes are basically the same).

Don't use UK roses, they are too big, with too many connections, not authorised and can't be hidden behind a flush fitting - all of this (as well as pendant lights, etc) can be done with boites d'encastrement.

Having read catalpa's post (done whilst I was typing this reply/answering the 'phone!), I thought I had better make my usual comment about NF & CE.

CE marking is about specific safety (where equipment interacts with other equipment) issues - in the case of electrical equipment/cars it is a measure of the influence a (eg. car) has on other equipment (eg. a portable phone). It has nothing to do with compliance with local standards (NF in France, DIN in Germany, BS in the UK). Essentially, some things (and electricals are one of them) must comform to both NF & CE to be legal for use in France (or BS & CE to be legit in the UK, etc), toys or cars for example only need to be CE compliant.

So, just because a light fitting is CE marked doesn't mean you can use it in France (or the UK, or Gremany....) likewise a cooker, or lightswitch, or power socket.

 

[Chancer]

I would like to second what Nick Trollope has said regarding CE and NF marking, the French Normes specifically ask for NF marking and go on to say that CE marking is not proof that it meets "the exacting (protectionist!) standards of NF".

To Catalpa - English light fittings would, and indeed do work, as the wiring system, insofar as switching light circuits, is exactly the same. I say this not to encourage the original poster to buy in England, that is up to them now that they fully understand, but in case anyone reading this is worried that English light switches already fitted in their houses could be dangerous.

As a seperate message to Nick Trollope.

I have recently sucessfully passed Consuel on the first of my apartments that I am building, this is after starting 12 months ago in a foreign country without experience or knowledge of the system, having little or no French (at the start) and without any help, professional or otherwise..

I am naturally very proud and want to acknowledge the help and information that I have found on this forum (especially from yourself) without which it would have been a very hard worrying struggle, and right now I probably would be ripping out all a lot of what I had done to rectify non-conformities.

To any one else considering doing the same (building from scratch or complete rewiring requiring Consuel inspection) don't be put off, it can be done but please seek informed advice. A lot of people offering advice (and I am mainly talking about the French here) are well meaning but can sometimes can be ill informed. The wiring regulations are constantly changing.

[Catalpa]

This CE vs NF business is a real bu**er. [:D] I have read the comment CF / NF comparison before - probably by NT - and we've been careful over what we've got from the UK - which is why we've gone with French light switches.

We've got a well-qualified, been in business 10 years but still going on courses, insurances coming out of his ears, French electrician doing our work. We're also paying for a certificate of conformance when the work is finished which I understand is completed by an independent assessor. Therefore our electrician is being very precise about what he will and will not fit for us. Our ceiling roses sourced from the UK are, he considers, fine.

So proof of pud will be in the granting of the certificate of conformance* but certainly, so far, what we've sourced from the UK has been confirmed as acceptable.

* is this the Consuel you mention, JR? And also, JR, congratulations on navigating your way through the requirements of the French electrical system. That's an achievement. [:D]

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="catalpa"]This CE vs NF business is a real bu**er. [:D] I have read the comment CF / NF comparison before - probably by NT - and we've been careful over what we've got from the UK - which is why we've gone with French light switches.

We've got a well-qualified, been in business 10 years but still going on courses, insurances coming out of his ears, French electrician doing our work. We're also paying for a certificate of conformance when the work is finished which I understand is completed by an independent assessor. Therefore our electrician is being very precise about what he will and will not fit for us. Our ceiling roses sourced from the UK are, he considers, fine.

So proof of pud will be in the granting of the certificate of conformance* but certainly, so far, what we've sourced from the UK has been confirmed as acceptable.

* is this the Consuel you mention, JR? And also, JR, congratulations on navigating your way through the requirements of the French electrical system. That's an achievement. [:D]


[/quote]

I'm afraid to say that, in theory at least, your UK ceiling roses should be failed by the man from the CONSUEL (for it is indeed he), as they are not NF marked/hence compliant.

JR

Thankyou. One does ones best!

 

[Punch]

In reality and in my experience, the Consuel rarely check for NF marking. Most inspectors go on their gut reaction and can usually tell a mile off if anything is untoward in an installation.  I have just had my 22nd Consuel inspection and as usual they are hot on earthing , polarity , The GTL,  correct number of points, Type A:Type AC differentielles  etc. etc . . All gaines for ceiling lighting points have to terminate in a DCL type box which is should be supported from above to accept a weight of 25Kg.  I regluarly go to trade meetings and the last one I attended was a Promotelec/Consuel Q & A session, and it was agreed that this is not always possible or practical and there are dispensations allowable for some instances.  Typically the bods who write the regs,  don't always consider the practicalities of putting them into practice!

Paul.

[Chancer]

Yes in theory your proposed ceiling roses should not pass, but in practice as Punch says their number one priority is safety and they look most carefully at the items that he mentioned.

Should they fail, it would probably not be because they lack NF markings but because they do not have the DCL connector.

I will explain what this is and the reason for its introduction:

Before, when people moved house they took their wall and ceiling lights with them (not to mention most of the kitchen) and usually left bare wires dangling. With the DCL system they can be removed by unplugging and the installation remains safe.

There is nothing to stop you fitting (in a sensible manner) your own choice of fittings after the consuel inspection, in fact some inspectors have been known to request items to be disconnected and removed in order to pass.

Editted:

The DCL boxes also have a hook to suspend the light fitting from assuming that they in turn have been fixed to a ceiling joist or whatever, mine havn't and I doubt that the tiny lugs holding on to the plasterboard would take .25 kilo.

Ther inspector did not ask me to remove and switches etc to look at terminations conduits etc but from my own experience one look at the standard of wiring in the tableau will tell him whether to look any further.

[Dick Smith]

Dumb question - what is a DCL box? We have used ceiling roses in a couple of places to neaten up - is that contrary to regulations?

[Anton Redman]

Basically a standard round French box for putting in a circular hole in the cealing but with a socket for a minature three pin plug for the wiring to the lighting fittting. I thing they are a great improvement you can now wire the 25 kilograme chandelier to a plug on the ground, then carry it up the ladder then hang it on the celing and plug it in. Also far easier for spring cleaning.

Only downsides the DIY sheds which have the boxes do not have the plugs and vice versa. 

http://www.castorama.fr/boutique/sku/sku.jhtml?elementId=Casto832660&productId=CastoEL0104&_requestid=109391

Castorama carry a good selection of alternative designs but they do seem expensive versus the UK. For cheap 'white white' as opposed to the faded ivory the French favour the supermarkets can be betttter than the DIY Sheds

[Dick Smith]

Thanks, Anton. As you say, it has the potential to make life a lot easier - I'll look out for them.

[Punch]

 

I'm not so sure Dick about making life easier.... Their main "selling point" in terms of the wiring regs was safety. That is to say that Joe public do not have to touch any part of the fixed wiring to change a light fitting as the DCL boxes have a plug and socket. In terms of installation, they are very fiddly and they have to be supported from above, which makes installation more costly than a standard job.

DCL type boxes have been obligatory on new installations for nearly two years now. Just a word of warning about safety if anyone is going to use them in a plasterboard ceiling;  Most of them have lugs that fix them to the plasterboard, which is NOT enough to support hanging a chandelier or heavy light fitting.  They should also be fixed above to the building structure to support the weight of the light fitting that hangs from the hook .

The DCL back boxes have a 6/8mm threaded insert in the centre and this should have a short piece of threaded rod which is then attached to the building structure above. There are a few other methods of fixing them, the one I like most and use often, is a thin cable system with a threaded bolt. The bolt attaches to the DCL box and then the cable is attached to a hook above, normally installed before the plasterboard is put up. Then at the installation stage, the cable can be pulled from below and takes up the tension thus supporting the box.

The French wiring regulations state that the  box should be able to support  a MINIMUM of 25KG !!

Paul.

 

[Dick Smith]

Having just struggled to fit a large light (heavy) - supporting it with one hand, holding the chocolate box with another and inserting the wires with a third (with the screwdriver in my teeth) the little plug looks a winner to me!  I take your point about fitting the ceiling box.  Mind you, it didn't weigh 25Kg...