Anyone heating their property with a Heat Pump?

[Le Plombier]

The changes in refrigerant gases over the past twenty years have been driven in the main by environmental issues in regard to the emission of cfc's

The Coefficient of Performance quoted for heat pumps by manufacturers is not a fixed ratio, they normally quote the best achievable or a very good average

It all comes down to the basic laws of physics

Heat exchange varies according to mass x specific gravity x temperature difference

The heat pumps I install for geothermie vary from the worst case of 2.6 COP ( kW purchased to kW delivered ) to 5.6 COP with 4 being a good average

The temperature difference in ground water through the year varies only a few degrees so the COP remains fairly consistent

With Aerothermie, air to refrigerant heat exchange, the temperature difference varies considerably with a lower COP when you need heat the most which generally requires supplementary heat

Heat pumps produce low grade heat ( lower temperature ) and the heat emitters such as radiators need to have about 15% greater surface area to achieve the same heat output as those installed on a conventional boiler system. This is vitally important if you are changing from a boiler to a heat pump on an existing installation. If your installer has not surveyed the size and output of the existing radiators and made changes or confirmed thay are the correct size you are probably wasting your money as you can never get sufficient heat in to your rooms, despite the performance of the heat pump 

The standard size hopper available for wood pellet boilers is 600 litres which would supply a boiler for perhaps one week

Larger hoppers in the main are site fabricated and very expensive to install

In my region ( Dordogne ) there are no local suppliers of pellets in reasonable quantities, so it is necessary to purchase in bulk if you want the best prices

The end result to make the best saving is bulk delivery, manually loading the hopper weekly and finding somewhere to dispose of the tons of ash produced in a year. Wood ash is good for roses but you will need a hell of a lot of roses

I will never install a green system unless my clients are fully aware of the disadvantages as well as the advantages of such a system

I would add that I am a committed supporter of green and alternative energy systems, they get better all the time but they do currently have limitations

A couple of postings in this thread appear to refer to air conditionong split systems and not to heat pumps, althought he principals are the same

Le Plombier

[UlsterRugby1999]

[quote]A couple of postings in this thread appear to refer to air conditionong split systems and not to heat pumps, althought he principals are the same[/quote]

Le Plombier - dont think you are getting away with that one liner you threw in at the end [;-)] What do you mean by that. What I have started to research is the air to air and air to water type systems. My knowledge and research are both at the (very) early stage but your last line has thrown me a wee bit (and thats no mean task at 15 1/2 stone)

Can you enlighten me a little bit SVP

Quillan - have you noticed any difference (upwards or downwards) in your electricity consumption - maybe its too early days yet and secondly did you look at air to water systems too.

[Le Plombier]

UlsterRugby1999

I am an England rugby man myself so maybe I shouldn't be talking to you but then you did have the best hooker in the world a few years back

Split systems effectively only use refrigerant gas as a single medium

The refrigerant gas passes through the external unit where it takes or rejects heat to the air ( assuming the unit is reversible for heating and cooling )

The refrigerant gas is the delivered to the room cassette where the hot or cool air is generated by heat exchange between the cassette coil and the room air

Heat pumps use several mediums

Either air (air to air - Aerothermie ) or water ( water to air - Geothermie ) interfaces with the heat exchanger in the heat pump to transfer heat in to the system

The circuit in the heat pump contains refrigerant gas and the heat in the gas plus the heat of compression is transferred to a water system via a heat exchanger

This a is very simplistic but hopefully explains the difference

With an air conditioning split it is air to refrigerant gas-refrigerant gas to air

With a heat pump it is air/water to refrigerant gas-refrigerant gas to water

The principles of coefficient of performance apply to both systems

Le plombier

[Payrac-man]

Hi

I saw this unt demonstrated at NEC in Birmingham and was very impressed Although it is not designed to be the total heat solution it is cheap to run can be supplemented by wood and provides cooling in summer.

http://genvex.i612.net/solution.asp

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="UlsterRugby1999"]

Quillan - have you noticed any difference (upwards or downwards) in your electricity consumption - maybe its too early days yet and secondly did you look at air to water systems too.

[/quote]

Can we leave the rugby alone pleaseeee [:(].

No I didn't look at air to water because of the cost of installing due to the way my house is built. Same reason why I didn't look at normal central heating.

To be honest its early days so I can't really say. I do have month by month readings for every year so I will be able to do a comparison at a later date. As I said somewhere else the problem is that they are AC units and what I am worried about is that any benifit that you get during the winter may be lost in the summer.

What I am currently looking in to is a key system for our rooms (we are a B&B) like a hotel where you have to put a card or key in a receptor to power the room up so people can't walk out and leave the ac on all day. Something like THIS .

[Théière]

I reckon there are a few parents that could use one of those [:D]

[UlsterRugby1999]

Normally I would gloat like hell over an English defeat but given our current mish mash performances I'll withdraw into the corner and hide along with everyone else. [:$]

Now - moving on - Le Plombier - thanks for explaining that (I think [;-)]) - if the 2 systems have the same, or similar, COP's and the cost of the A/C inverter units running the newer gas and with an energy rating of A, as described by Quillan, are much lower to buy and can be self installed, then it seems to me that buying 2 of the BiSplit units and allowing for the extras, I'd have a reasonable heating system for circa 4000€. I take your point Quillan about the potential for extra outlay during the summer but I have the option not to use them either at all or anywhere near as much.

Or have I completely missed the point. [8-)]

 

[krusty]

UR1999 Like you I am trying to decide if the bi-split units are worth having for heating.

Some have put forward the argument that at minus temperatures they do not put out much heat , but where I am we do not get many days at minus , plenty of nights at minus but then we are tucked up in bed and don't have the full house heated just an oil filled rad in the bedroom.

I just need to get figures to show how much electricity they use to keep a house warm.

And like you I will not be using them for cooling , I have ceiling fans fitted and they have so far kept us cool in summers.

[UlsterRugby1999]

krusty - that just about sums it up.

I'm also researching wind turbine electricity generation. On this basis, should it all come together, then I would have a pretty efficient system for producing and storing the electricity and minimal costs for heat (and thereafter cooling) generation.

At present, we have 3 woodburners, one of which is rarely used, and we use circa 6 - 7 cord of wood which this year has cost us 780€ - so far. With our pretty high electricity consumption for convector heaters and other equipment, such as water heating, it wont be long before the above set up (in one format or another) would ease our expenditure and more importantly our work load as we get older.

This all seems like sound logic to me but the research material is immense and often difficult to get to grips with. These threads do help quite a bit though.

[Le Plombier]

In a new well insulated and reasonably airtight house the use of reversible air conditioning split systems for heating is possibly a good option

In an old stone house with draughts and far from air tight the choice of heating using air as the medium to deliver the heat needs careful consideratiion

Without getting technical air delivered from an outlet, a grille or a room cassette unit will travel a certain distance and then dump ( not travel any further )

If you have a large room and it is draughty you may well find there are cold pockets when using air to heat

Difficult to explain simply but be careful, you need to be sure the unit fan pressure and grille selection will give the air sufficient throw to travel the required distance to heat the room evenly

With radiators and underfloor heating you do not have the same problems

If you think about all the offices you have worked in, or still do, that are air conditioned they are most probably fairly airtight

I might become an Irish fan in the near future, my mother was Irish

Le Plombier

[UlsterRugby1999]

[quote]I might become an Irish fan in the near future, my mother was Irish[/quote]

Aye - and sure there'd be a welcome there for you too.

That makes sense to me and encourages me that if I take this old house and get those wee draughts all sealed up, then the cheaper option of the air con inverters is still a viable option. Thanks for that Le Plombier - I appreciate your experience and input.

I have more reading to do yet before I make the final decision. Good luck to you all and thanks agin for all the input.

Slan agus go raibh mile maith agaibh (goodbye and a 1000 thank yous to you all)

[krusty]

Well that was a boost to me , mine is a modern house so holds the heat well.

It just hard getting my head round  that you can put 1kw in and get up to 4kw out ?

[Gyn_Paul]

Because you're not converting the electricity into heat, but into mechanical energy. As an entirely separate issue, that energy is 'concentrating' a large volume of low-grade heat into a small volume of high-grade heat. The red herring is that kWh is used to measure both the resulting heat and the electrical energy consumed, but you're not actually comparing like-with-like

p

[krusty]

Thanks GP .

Some more info to read [:)]

 

[UlsterRugby1999]

Cheers krusty - nice easy read with info I could understand first time out too. The bottom line is that its a cheaper option, for me, especially in a house where geothermal cannot be installed.

I'm a bit concerned about the aspect of positioning of the units. There maybe little alternatives on this one given the layout of the house.

[Quillan]

You need to get out and have a look at some. Some of them have moving vents, some move up and down and some from side to side as well, some even do this automatically to create a 'wave' effect to cover bigger areas.

[UlsterRugby1999]

Quillan wrote [quote]You need to get out[/quote]

Actually, my wife would agree with you but for a different reason [;-)][;-)]

I think your advise is good and I'll start looking for the units on the sides of properties. I guess its a good way to practice and broaden my French.

[Quillan]

Why not visit Brio Depot or somewhere simular, they have them on display. Leroy Merlin is pretty good for finding out things, their staff are very helpful. Of course you don't have to buy one from them, just get the SP.

Plus 60 points for the All Blacks this weekend then [6] .

[UlsterRugby1999]

I'll be in BricoDepot in the next few weeks so I'll do just as you suggest. Additionally, I'll look for houses, locally, with the exterior units in view and pluck up the courage to go and ask my questions.

As for the rugby, the AB's will field the team from hell, from and English perspective, but true balls and British bulldog passion can make a 16th man. The Kiwis are on a grand slam roll but Martin Johnston is a better man than most. It aint over till the fat one sings. All Blacks by 10 - 15 points max with a brace of tries from both sides. Or I'll buy you a squad of Guinness.

[Frank]

Question for Quillan ( or anyone else out there that has bought a Bi Split Inverter air con system from brico depot!!!!)

Hi Quillan, How is your Bi Split air con unit working from Brico depot?? The reason I ask is I also purchased a Bi Split this yr and to start with all seemed well!  But I am having some wierd moments with mine!! For example, if I set the temp on the remote at 16' for one unit then use the other remote and set temp to 24' for the other unit, the unit at 16 merrily goes up to 24 ish and the other that is set at 24 will slowly slowly go up to 21 ish.  Its quite bizzare and I was wondering if you had experienced similar anomolies.  At first I thought it was a gas leak and contacted airton, and they said not a leak, I think it is odd though.  The chap that came out also said to leave it switched on all the time as it was cheaper that way, so we will see if  Monsieur EDF is rubbing is hands in a few weeks time!  And now it is getting below freezing, it is switching itself off and 'defrosting' (lots of water, more than the usual dripping)  for a few mins then switching back on.......................very odd behaviour and some very odd noises to boot!  If it is just my set up, which was installed and charged by an engineer, then I think it may well need to go back!  Sorry to ramble on, but if you have had any of the above or similar it would help shed some light on whether its 'normal' or I have a dodgy system. 

Many thanks in advance

jetlag,

[Le Plombier]

I wouldn't buy anything from brico depot

Notwithstancing that are your two remote controllers set up on different frequencies

I stayed in a hotel room in New York on a business trip many years ago, the room was huge and had two televisions

This was great until I used the remote to switch one off and the other one came on

Your problem may be just as simple as that

Le Plombier

[krusty]

Has anyone used this firm for split units ?

myclim

[UlsterRugby1999]

Thanks krusty - I've bookedmarked the link for weekends reading. I'm hoping to make Poitiers this afternoon and get a look at the systems in BricoDepot which Quillan has mentioned. There does seem, on a very quick glance, to be quite a price difference between BricoDepots units and your links units. Homework time.

[Quillan]

[quote user="jetlag"]

Question for Quillan ( or anyone else out there that has bought a Bi Split Inverter air con system from brico depot!!!!)

jetlag,

[/quote]

Hi sorry for answering so late, I am not getting post notifications, haven't done for about 8 weeks so I have to go and have a look through the forum.

Anyway, no sorry I don't have a bi-split i.e two inside units running off one outside unit, I have individual units. I only have one unit to a room. Therefore I have not tried setting two units with one control.

I can see the guys logic about leaving them on all the time. If you did physics at school and remember they used to explain that it costs a lot of money to get an iron up to temp but very little to keep it there, its the same with heating.

No they are not exactly quiet either about 35db they say and I couldn't sleep with one on although its not so bad when your awake and you have ambient noise around the house. I actually consider this an advantage in some ways because hopefully the guests won't be able to sleep with it on either. Mind you our old heating system turns off at 10:30 every night anyway. It is important to use the mounting brackets as they have rubberized mounts which cuts out vibration from outside.

If you are seriously icing up it might indicate that the capacity of your unit is a bit on the small side for the room you are using. The number of M2 that each unit says it can heat/cool is based the ceiling being 2.7M high (I think thats right). So for instance my lounge has a vaulted ceiling therefore I would add on another 50% plus 10M2 just to be safe. As I said all the stuff I have read says that these units have to be over speced to get the best out of them.

[WJT]

The below link may be of interest to anyone thinking of buying one at Brico Depot.

http://www.totalfrance.com/france/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54238&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0