Mairie Says 'Declaration de Travaux/Permis de Construire' Not Needed

[Rich1972]

I visited the local mairie last week to ask for some forms so I could get my planning permission application underway. I saw the deputy and told him that I wanted to convert the currently empty grenier, adding a bathroom, three bedrooms and Velux windows at the rear. To cut a long story short, he said that I didn't need a permis de construire or even a declaration de travaux. He knows the house/area as he came over a year or so ago to look at the proposed location for a septic tank (for which I did get planning permission). The only thing he gave me was a form to fill out for taxation purposes, on which I have to list the sizes of the rooms when finished. The problem is that I'm not sure I believe him but if he says it's not necessary what else can I do?

[Théière]

If you get that in writing it is only valid for the current Mairie's term and they come and go, the next may have different ideas.

[Rich1972]

[quote user="Théière"]If you get that in writing it is only valid for the current Mairie's term and they come and go, the next may have different ideas.[/quote]

So I should go in there and demand to put in a permis de construire?

[Iceni]

No, don't demand to submit one, just do it.

John

[Chancer]

Nothing that you plan to do needs a permis de construire, velux windows on the front or side elevations need a declaration prelable, those at the rear normally not, although this may differ in a conservation area.

You have covered yourself by checking at the Mairie, as you rightly say, what else can you do?

Demanding a permis de construire, if that indeed were possible would involve you in significant expense should your property become or already be greater than 170m2 habitable, you would have to use an architect and then be obliged to abide by all of the normes on the plans.

[Clair]

As Chancer says, you will need at the very least a déclaration préalable. It is necessary for works modifying the external aspect of the building (your Velux windows)

You do not need to get one from the mairie, as it can be downloaded HERE.

There are other aspects to consider, but this is the minimum requirement for the works you describe.

More general details about what may e required HERE (in French).

Be aware of the compulsory declaration to the tax authorities, which will trigger an increase of your local taxes according to the space created by the intended works.

[Rich1972]

Thanks for the feedback. I was very surprised when I talked with the deputy. He seemed to think it all involved a lot of paperwork and was unnecessarily expensive. The secretary was in the mairie too and overheard the entire conversation. I asked her specifically if it was usual to have a D de T for Velux and she said yes but when I asked the deputy he just said he didn't need one. I live in a very rural area, a small hamlet of about five houses, and my own place backs onto a farming area with cow sheds and farm machinery. The Velux windows are all going to be at the rear of the house. The only time he quibbled was when I said I wanted to install 5 Velux (there are no windows in the north wall). I then said I was going to install them over an extended period of time rather than all at once and he said in that case it wasn't a problem. I've talked to my French neighbour who owns the land at the back of the house and he hasn't got a problem either (the Velux are for the light, not for the view). I suppose it varies from commune to commune. I was under the impression that almost everything required a declaration or permis of one sort or another. When I removed the old lime render from the front of the house I told them about it and they said 'do what you want'.

[Stan Streason]

We have something similar.  At the rear of our house are two rooms that are pretty much inaccessable with a door from our kitchen but no steps down to a different level.

We asked the mairie what was required to put in an outside door so it could be used almost as a storage shed.  He stated that as there was already a (very small) window there I didnt need any paperwork to change it to a door.

Once again totally unoverlooked and no one else would ever know. - just seems odd.

[Clair]

[quote user="Rich1972"]I suppose it varies from commune to commune.[/quote]

It really does not.

Some people who should know better might prefer to let it slide with a wave, a shrug or a nod. After all, they're not the ones who are going to be liable, so why should they care...?

[Patf]

Isn't the DDE involved too? (Department d'Equipement.) They were when we were getting permissions for various projects. In fact we were told they had more powers than the Maire on these things.

[nemltd]

Cross the T's and dot the I's.

We paid an architect 1500.00 euros to draw plans for our complete remodelling of the house. This also included applying for and recieving the necessary permissions and paperwork. The prefecture wanted another 1300 euros over 3 years in 2 payments.

This seems like taking money from the cost of the works at first, but it is worth every penny in the long term. Unless you want to be on TV as one of those 'poor hard-done byes' that fall foul of local planning laws!

If it feels wrong, don't do it wrong.

[Chancer]

If the Maire says its OK why worry?

What is the worst that can happen? - Somone could complain but theyare not going to get very far unless there is a change of Maire. Even if the new one does not like you the worts case is that you may have to fill out a declaration prealable retrospectively.

There is a lot of difference between complete remodelling of a house which probably as there was an architect involved needed a declaration de travaux and fitting a couple of veluxes, just look around you there are hundreds of em.

I changed two lucarnes on the front elevation for much larger veluxes and fitted 6 veluxes on the rear elevation and didnt bother the Mairie about it as he had already made the position clear by saying "ni vu, ni connu"  when I had enquired about converting the outbuildings at the rear into my flat.

I filled out a declaration prealable and got permission to change the colour of the pignon and demi-pignon walls, when it came to surfacing the car park and building one meter high soil retaining walls visible from the road frontage they didnt want me to.

I shant lose any sleep over what I have already done and what I am doing at the moment, I would draw the line though at a new building or extending the existing one although my neighbours have.

[Rich1972]

[quote user="Chancer"]

If the Maire says its OK why worry?[/quote]

This is what annoys me slightly. Everything you read and hear says 'go and ask the Mairie to be on the safe side', and when I do he stands there and says 'non, ce n'est pas necessaire' [8-)]

[nemltd]

Wise words Clair.....................The point here is that you might get away with it, if you are a chancer in life generally then this will just be another one of those chances you take.

I can hear the mairie now, when it all goes wrong...........c'est la vie!

You wouldn't flout planning laws, or most other laws here in the UK, why is it that people are all too ready to do it abroad.

Anything to get on TV for some people!

 

[Chancer]

[quote user="nemltd"]

[/quote]

No-one has spoken about breaking any other laws and if you watched French local or national TV you would know that they are not likely to screen a report on a couple of velux windows in a rear elevation.

As for the following: You wouldn't flout planning laws, or most other laws here in the UK,

You are incorrect as (ignoring the reference to other laws)  I did do exactly that (in the eyes of the local authority) who duly served an enforcement order on me and subsequently the case went to a public enquiry.

Thanks to the sensible provisions of sections 171a and 171b of the Town And Country Planning Act and with the support of all of my neighbours I won the case and now have a legitimate second property on my plot.

As for getting on the telly there were no members of the public at the enquiry let alone the newspapers.

 

[douglas]

I have been obtaining planning permits for house renovations and new builds for many years here in central France and I have found things have changed considerably. Any change to the external appearance of the building must be agreed either with a permis de construire or declaration prelable. Not all local councilors are up to date on these requirements and their word of mouth is not enough to avoid a problem with the planners. These permissions are a bit complicated but not impossible and not expensive.

Drop me line if you need some help.

Douglas

[Rich1972]

[quote user="nemltd"]

You wouldn't flout planning laws, or most other laws here in the UK, why is it that people are all too ready to do it abroad.

[/quote]

Speak for yourself

[Clair]

Let's not turn this into another discussion about "intergration" (sic)

please...

Rich1972, you have received a good range of opinions and I hope you have found one you like  [:)].

[Chancer]

Hey Rich if it all goes wrong we can keep each other company in prison [;-)]

Unless of course you have been persuaded to challenge the authority of Monsieur le Maire and insist submittig a permis de construire together with architects drawings of your proposed velux windows [:P]

[nemltd]

I guess thats your choice, but advising other people to flout the law? Mmmmm..........

[nemltd]

Sorry, when I said you wouldn't flout planning laws or any other laws, I was thinking of people in general, including myself.

Your original post suggested you were worried about the planning application process and confusion over what the mairie had said. My advice was sincere and well intentioned, and I stand by it.

Please cross the T's and dot the I's, unless you are not bothered. In which case why bother asking for opinions in the first place.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="nemltd"]

You wouldn't flout planning laws, or most other laws here in the UK, why is it that people are all too ready to do it abroad.

[/quote]

No, really?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/feb/06/farmers-secret-castle-planning-dispute

In 1993 Teresa Gorman, the MP for Billericay, made unauthorised changes to the farmhouse that she owned. After four years of court hearings she had to pay £6,000 in fines and was forced to tear down a new porch and reinstate old windows. She was lucky — at one point in the proceedings she was threatened with possible fines of more than £1 million.

http://property.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/property/buying_and_selling/article733723.ece

 

[Www]

[Chancer]

[quote user="nemltd"]I guess thats your choice, but advising other people to flout the law? Mmmmm..........[/quote]

Thats a bit strong!

What law do you consider the OP would be flouting by fitting his veluxes in accordance with the instructions of the Maire?

[Will]

Probably none - but if he had acted solely on the verbal instructions of the deputy maire and this was subsequently queried, I don't really see M l'adjoint admitting that he had got it wrong. Whereas if he had filled in the form and deposited it at the mairie, it would hardly be his fault if the maire had failed to act on it.

[Chancer]

This is a subject that I have studied in detail and my considered opinion is:

Subject to the property not being in a conservation area.

The OP does not require a permis de construire for what is classed as a simple change to a facade, a declaration préalable would be required for windows including veluxes on the front or side faces if they are a devanture visible from the road.

From what I can gather it is the rear elevation of the house and the Maire is correct, no permission of any kind is required.