Removing Millstones

[NickP]

How long did your sense of humour by- pass take gluey? [:D] And as for helping the OP I thought I made a perfectly valid comment which was perfectly sensible. My advice was, if he was worried about doing the job, don't attempt it without expert help, whats the problem? As for flat roofs and garages although not in my realms of expertise, I believe that most of them are over one meter in height, is that not the case? Or are you  vertically challenged and live in a world that is only 1 meter high. And by the way mate I think you are starting to get paranoid but don't let it worry you. [:P]

[Chancer]

So does this mean that you two actually agree that scaffolding is required for a builder (i the UK) to rework a flat roof which as you have pointed out is above one metre height?

Mon dieu what is the world coming to?

Last year (and a bit of the one before) I redid all the elevations of my property which fronts onto a route national and is bang opposite a massive aircraft factory presumably heaving with H&S bods as they are massively over cadréd.

I made my own scaffolding from wood, angle brackets made from chevrons, platforms from 27mm solivettes and guard corps from plancher de coffrage, it was attached (not really well enough to say fixed) with resin anchors (not the proper ones, - hors de prix en France) and I winched myself up in a bosuns chair with the materials hanging in a bucket underneath me, I had 5 levels to (nearly) reach the apex and was winched through trap doors in each one.

Not one word was said by anyone although there were a few near accidents,  I didnt have a scaffoldin permit either on the basis that nothing was reposing on the trottoir (it was hanging above it) and more importantly I did the front elevation (fronting directly onto the trottoir and road) during July and August when the tumbleweed is the only thing that moves along the road.

[NickP]

Don't be silly Chancer; gluey and I would never agree on anything.[Www] He said his chum reckons "scaffolding is needed on any structure above one metre", I said "if that was the case they will have to shut down concert halls and theatres(stages)"                           What a building contractor would deem necessary I don't know? as I am not a builder. I think you are better qualified to answer that question. But remind me not to stand below your building or your cheapo resin anchors when you are hauling yourself up in the bosuns chair. Maybe your mate Ron was right when he named you chancer [:D] 

 

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="NickP"]

Don't be silly Chancer; gluey and I would never agree on anything.[Www] He said his chum reckons "scaffolding is needed on any structure above one metre", I said "if that was the case they will have to shut down concert halls and theatres(stages)"                           What a building contractor would deem necessary I don't know? as I am not a builder. I think you are better qualified to answer that question. But remind me not to stand below your building or your cheapo resin anchors when you are hauling yourself up in the bosuns chair. Maybe your mate Ron was right when he named you chancer [:D] [/quote]

Not forgetting one of the other forum experts -

[quote]The largest of the stones at 1.5 m X 0.25 m will only weigh 1.25 metric tonnes and it has a hole diameter higher than the centre of gravity so a fairly stable lift.[/quote]

ONLY 1.25 metric tonnes ! Can't see what the problem is myself, the OP should simply recruit the services of the skilled practioners from here !

Alternatively, without undertaking accurate calculations on the loads involved especially where weight will be concentrated on timbers of a questionable condition, I would be inclined to secure the services of a qualified person to advise how to proceed safely. 

[Chancer]

[quote user="NickP"]

. Maybe your mate Ron was right when he named you chancer [:D] 

 

[/quote]

That goes without saying or I would not have used the name.

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="jehe"]Hi We're currently renovating a 16th Century millhouse, and need to remove the grinding stones to repair a rapidly deteriorating floor. Is there anyone on here who has been in the same situation? We'd like them removed but kept whole if possible, however this seems increasingly unlikely. Any thoughts on the problem appreciated![/quote]

I've been in touch with a friend of mine who was involved in the restoration of a National Trust mill. She has suggested initially, you make contact with;

FEDERATION DES MOULINS DE FRANCE [URL]http://www.fdmf.fr/index.php[/url]. They have the required expertise to enable you to progress in a safe manner, plus they will be able to offer advice on sympathetic restoration.

A visit to [url]http://www.angelfire.com/journal/pondlilymill/index.html[/url] is also to be recommended. An American site but an excellent source of information.

Hope this information is use to you and I wish you the best of luck with your project.

[just john]

[quote user="Salty Sam"] A visit to [url]http://www.angelfire.com/journal/pondlilymill/index.html[/url] is also to be recommended. An American site but an excellent source of information. [/quote]

sometimes reading the whole thread is also to be recommended . . .[geek]

[quote user="just john "] Edit: You might find this useful for background to how millstones are moved regularly
(millstones weigh between 1 and 2 tonnes incidently) -

http://www.angelfire.com/journal/millrestoration/millstones.html [/quote]

[Salty Sam]

Sorry JJ, but I didn't see your link [url]http://www.angelfire.com/journal/millrestoration/millstones.html[/url] as being the same as [url]http://www.angelfire.com/journal/pondlilymill/index.html[/url] .

The links provided came from someone with a some expertise in building conservation and restoration, and subsequently I'm not going to click on any other links provided to double check if they have or have not been already provided, albeit under a different web address !

I therefore step back and award you the full glory of having discovered the site in question first.[;-)] 

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Salty Sam"][quote user="NickP"]

Don't be silly Chancer; gluey and I would never agree on anything.[Www] He said his chum reckons "scaffolding is needed on any structure above one metre", I said "if that was the case they will have to shut down concert halls and theatres(stages)"                           What a building contractor would deem necessary I don't know? as I am not a builder. I think you are better qualified to answer that question. But remind me not to stand below your building or your cheapo resin anchors when you are hauling yourself up in the bosuns chair. Maybe your mate Ron was right when he named you chancer [:D] [/quote]

Not forgetting one of the other forum experts -

[quote]The largest of the stones at 1.5 m X 0.25 m will only weigh 1.25 metric tonnes and it has a hole diameter higher than the centre of gravity so a fairly stable lift.[/quote]

ONLY 1.25 metric tonnes ! Can't see what the problem is myself, the OP should simply recruit the services of the skilled practioners from here !

Alternatively, without undertaking accurate calculations on the loads involved especially where weight will be concentrated on timbers of a questionable condition, I would be inclined to secure the services of a qualified person to advise how to proceed safely. 

[/quote]

Not forgetting one of the other forum experts -

Indeed I should hate to be forgotten and particularly by Salty Sam but when I see the ONLY in capitals preceeding the weight of the larger of the two millstones mentioned by the OP, I do sense a certain twinge of irony and perchance sarcasm. My experience of large rectangular timber furnishings in shafts on Union Corporation Gold Mines on the East Rand would stand me in good stead in assessing the condition of the support timbers in the mill under discussion. The lowering and raising of locomotives, transformers, front end loaders, raise boring machines, jaw crushers, etc  into and out of a shaft station whilst suspended below a cage on 3000 ft of steel rope would IMHO stand me in good stead for a paltry 1.5 tonnes bit of rock. Should I pop across the river to the local mill owner with a fully restored working mill and question him on how they changed millstones at his mill. NO it is over 50 metres away and the sun is hot.[:(] 

[Salty Sam]

[quote]Not forgetting one of the other forum experts -

Indeed I should hate to be forgotten and particularly by Salty Sam but when I see the ONLY in capitals preceeding the weight of the larger of the two millstones mentioned by the OP, I do sense a certain twinge of irony and perchance sarcasm. My experience of large rectangular timber furnishings in shafts on Union Corporation Gold Mines on the East Rand would stand me in good stead in assessing the condition of the support timbers in the mill under discussion. The lowering and raising of locomotives, transformers, front end loaders, raise boring machines, jaw crushers, etc  into and out of a shaft station whilst suspended below a cage on 3000 ft of steel rope would IMHO stand me in good stead for a paltry 1.5 tonnes bit of rock. Should I pop across the river to the local mill owner with a fully restored working mill and question him on how they changed millstones at his mill. NO it is over 50 metres away and the sun is hot.[/quote]

How fascinating Mr P, my sister is a Doctor but I doubt she can perform a heart transplant !  However I don't see any mention of previous expertise in moving millstones other than a tentative offer to "pop across the river" to enquire at your local mill. Based upon the information you've provided, why don't you approach the FEDERATION DES MOULINS DE FRANCE ? I'm sure they would be well impressed and most probably welcome your expertise with open arms.

But, and it's a big but, would you be willing to commit your expertise to the OP, and recompense if it all went wrong ?

Hence the reason why I sought out professional expertise and the link to FDMF.

[jehe]

Thanks for all you're advice, very helpful as usual on here!

Although I'm sure I can get them moved myself, I'm going to get professional advice first to assess the risks as some of you have recommended. The FDMF seems a very good starting point, we never knew such an association existed.

I think I'll buy some Acros as gluestick recommended to make the room safe to work/walk in for the meantime.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="jehe"]Thanks for all you're advice, very helpful as usual on here! Although I'm sure I can get them moved myself, I'm going to get professional advice first to assess the risks as some of you have recommended. The FDMF seems a very good starting point, we never knew such an association existed. I think I'll buy some Acros as gluestick recommended to make the room safe to work/walk in for the meantime.[/quote]

The condition of the floor is obviously for me the principal unknown; the slinging of 1.5 tonnes is pea-nuts. There should be help closer to you on the river indre. I would suggest you contact the local contact of the FFAM who are concerned with restoration of mills; however they are also interested in the recovery of elements from a mill for possible use in a future restoration job. In effect they may undertake the stripping of all the running gear from the mill, they have all the gear accessible and the perrsons involved are unpaid experienced volunteers.

They have a series of practical guides available and I include a short extract from one in Power Point format.

Prendre des photos de l'installation complète avant démontage. Elles aideront au remontage, mais elles seront aussi des documents d’archives, les dernières vues de l’équipement d’un moulin qui avait traversé les siècles.

Cinq ou six demi-journées sont nécessaires à une équipe de 4 à 6 bénévoles pour démonter un moulin à meules. Outre l'outillage courant, sangles, palans et rouleaux sont les plus utilisés. Enfin un camion muni d'une grue permettra de faire franchir les derniers mètres aux pièces les plus lourdes et d'assurer le transport.
La gestion du matériel sauvegardé

Le matériel pourra être cédé gratuitement aux adhérents ou à un prix modique permettant de couvrir d'éventuels frais encourus pour l'achat, le démontage ou le stockage ; il pourra également être échangé ou vendu hors association.

Parmi les éléments les plus demandés actuellement on trouve les mécanismes de relevage de vannes, les meules, rouets de fosse, bluteries et éléments de transmissions (pignons, poulies, paliers).

http://www.moulinsdefrance.org/ffam/presentation.swf

As you appear to be doing a complete change and not a restoration this association may be worth a call.

If you need any help in making contact or conversing on telephone just let me know.

Cheers PPP.

P.S. Link to contacts by department.

http://www.moulinsdefrance.org/reseau/liens.html

[BIG MAC]

As alluded to elsewhere in the post...Mill stones are actually consumeables...there will have been a way at the time which may not exist now or dangerous to try. (I would suspect that the floor is actually removeable in part or at least was) I suspect that a rope would have been slung around the sail axle and coiled sufficiently to allow enough spare on the spool to permit a later lowering through the floor of the stone. The would likely have  allowed the rotation of the sails to raise the top stone to a point where the sails would be turned out of the wind and then hand rotated backwards to lower it through a trap.

I suspect the cave / cellar door may have a soft threshold which could be dug out to permit the rolling of the stone out the door, if not then that is what I would look at doing as the least disturbance to the fabric of the building.

Process would repeat for the lower stone.

I bet in their time it took a day to change both because the expertise would have been there and the old beams etc capable of taking weight which we should probably not contemplate now

[pachapapa]

The mill is probably on the River Indre or an associated tributary rather than a wind mill. But wind or water power would have been used to lift and lower the "meules".

Whilst my local river the Thouet has a water mill every 5 kilometres or so, the actual working mills are relatively rare. The local wind mills are little more than empty shells.

The closest working wind mill is at Cherves in La Vienne about 15 kilometres away; the mill is worked several times a year and it can be visited on these occasions.

Whilst sacks are elevated using wind power and a simple friction  clutch, heavier weights for safety reasons and accuracy of control on the lift involve the turning of the sail arms.

The mechanical advantage is quite sufficient with a few helpers. 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="BIG MAC"]

As alluded to elsewhere in the post...Mill stones are actually consumeables...[/quote]

Indeed yes: their surface is semi-sacrificial. Re-Dressing was required, periodically, in order to maintain the essential "Chopping action.

And as Mac says, they probably utilised wind power: and I'll bet they made provision for this in design, as they did for the grain hoist.

Personally, I find this thread fascinating: it brings to the fore once again, that age old question "How did they do that?", sparked when at the top of an old lighthouse or looking at pictures or film of say the Eddystone Lighthouse, sited 9 miles from Rame Head in treacherous currents; how on earth did they actually buld it: and winch up all the components to the light tower?

Same thoughts looking at Victorian iron bridges etc.

I also believe we have all become far too risk-averse, thanks to not only regulations, but also and mainly insurance underwriters and litigation.

In my time I have moved some pretty cumbersome things using only simple and very basic equipment: lathes, milling machines, surface grinders and the like.

Old millstones did require removing, re-dressing and replacing and/or replacing with new: so, how did they do that?

Pretty obviously, using basic winches taking advantage of mechanical gain of pulley systems.

Perhaps the World today is too well served with cherry pickers, fork-lifts and Hiabs...........

 

[just john]

With you gluey, fascinating; and the sort of thing that is satisfying. I made a new opening in the first floor to match existing window, lifting two limestone lintels from Van to floor was exciting, let alone getting them in (on small pallet on skate board which then broke) then up to the first floor via chain pulley and ropes round pallet, then dragged across (new) floor and up four inches at a time pallet to pallet to tower scaffold, eventually rolling sideways on scaffold poles into position in wall onto lime mortar and finally using oak wedges to level.

But how did they do it?

[pachapapa]

The moulin de TOL is the last wind-mill in La Vienne and is a classed Monument Historique. The mill was damaged in 2007, the video featured last year on TF1 gives an account of the repairs undertaken by les gens de cherves.

http://videos.tf1.fr/jt-13h/visite-du-dernier-moulin-de-la-vienne-4436722.html

Perhaps someone could give Thierry Croix or Bernard Meunier a quick call to check on changing millstone standard practice at the mill.[:)]

[Gluestick]

That's the whole thing, for me, JJ!

You actually did it!

You didn't say "Oh needs some special men to do that; far too heavy!" And finish up with scaffolding everywhere and a crane hired for the morning!

You would in that case, have looked at the total cost and probably forgotten your concept: dismissed as far too dear.

Now I am not advocating, obviously, people doing very dangerous things and taking silly risks with life and limb: however, I am saying I think, sometimes, we have to be a tad more adventurous: having firstly carefully assessed the putative risks and made sure we and our feet are out of the way just in case the thing, whatever it is, falls, or ropes, chains, hawser breaks.

For me, that's the ethos of this section of the forum: otherwise it would simply be threads about "Do you consider this Devis too much?"

What impresses me no end are the vast number of members who are turning their retirement-semi-retirement and vacation time to have the guts to tackle endless renovation jobs and what are considered specialisms.

Did anyone see this programme on Grand Designs?

See here:

I'm always rather suspicious of some of these TV things: did the people really do the work? etc.

I was so fascinated, I tracked Deni and Doug down and we exchanged emails: and they assured me they did do everything as shown being done by themselves, themselves: including lifting and placing the huge beams!

Incredible achievement.

 

 

[jehe]

It's just not one of those jobs anyone can really afford to get wrong. I'm certainly no match for a 1t millstone in a confined space.

Anyway, I think the project is pretty adventurous even if we do get experienced advice before we try to move them, rather than just go straight at the job and risk making a potentially dangerous/expensive mistake.

Shame theres not a nice big ugly RSJ running right over the top of them.

[pachapapa]

Help Thierry and his papy![:)]

http://www.restauration-moulin.fr/

 

[pachapapa]

I'm certainly no match for a 1t millstone in a confined space.

Dont worry about it!   We are now on the historical reminiscences stage, just sit back and enjoy.  I is a mining engineer with experience on three continents, much of it underground in confined spaces.  I still have a hard hat and safety boots. Ran a mining company in South America for these guys....http://www.fluor.com/Pages/default.aspx......and they send me a pension check every month.[:)]

Also a smart ass, over confident and got an "A" level in Spanish.[:D]

[powerdesal]

[quote user="jehe"]It's just not one of those jobs anyone can really afford to get wrong. I'm certainly no match for a 1t millstone in a confined space.

Anyway, I think the project is pretty adventurous even if we do get experienced advice before we try to move them, rather than just go straight at the job and risk making a potentially dangerous/expensive mistake.

Shame theres not a nice big ugly RSJ running right over the top of them.[/quote]

'Shame theres not a nice big ugly RSJ running right over the top of them'. But surely there could be. Put one there. Support the ends on shorter sections of RSJ mounted at 90 deg to the main run and supported on acrows. Put similar acrows below the floor at the same points, hence not stressing the dodgy floor beams. (imagine an H shape in plan view with the legs of the H as the short sections and the crossbar of the H as your 'big ugly RSJ').

Its just a thought.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

I'm certainly no match for a 1t millstone in a confined space.

Dont worry about it!   We are now on the historical reminiscences stage, just sit back and enjoy.  I is a mining engineer with experience on three continents, much of it underground in confined spaces.  I still have a hard hat and safety boots. Ran a mining company in South America for these guys....http://www.fluor.com/Pages/default.aspx......and they send me a pension check every month.[:)]

Also a smart ass, over confident and got an "A" level in Spanish.[:D]

[/quote]

And probably used Coal Dust and Ammonium Nitrate instead of blasting jelly when the jelly ran out..................

So one has heard.

[Www]

[jehe]

That actually should work quite nicely, positioning one Acro over another so the load is on the floor underneith. I just need to sort out a chain block capable of moving from side to side. I'll plan work on that basis.

I'll take some photos and see what you guys think before I start moving stuff.

[Gluestick]

1.5 tonnes would not actually cause that much overload on properly braced standard thickness galvanised steel scaffolding.

It is really a matter of simple deflection: caused by the load over distance increasing the effective leverage advantage.

Tubes are great for taking weight as the upper bit is in tension caused by stretching and the bottom in compression.

If you surf pictures of engine hoists, then you will find the structure is quite modest and they tend to be certified to 2 tonnes and upwards:

E.G.

All depends on the distance from the last support at which point the hoist is sitting.

All provided the structure is properly braced creating triangulation to prevent lateral movement of any frame you make.

The load would probably be comfortably handled by two horizontal tubes side by side, with braces at 90 degrees, as necessary: sat on floor plates screwed into the floor to prevent movement and the Acrows downstairs providing significant rigidity to the compromised structure.

For 1.5 tonnes an RSJ is really overkill.

It all depends, obviously, on the actual weight of each stone.

And that would be my own starting point: calculated on type of stone and diameter X Depth.

The pics would be very useful to allow actual comprehension of the problems and the potential solutions.