Cheap insulation again.

[Chancer]

Its that time of year agian when the UK energy companies start competing with each other to subsidise insulation to meet their carbon credits.

The starting price is reduced this year to only £3 per roll but may well get cheaper once the competition hot up, last year the cheapest went for 89 pence per roll and by that I mean the full roll of 5m2.

I made hay last year and even managed to sell on my surplus on Leboncoin to the mutual satisfaction of both buyer and seller, a friend was in the UK at the time to pick up his new Transit van and I alerted him, he filled it to the brim and managed to recoup the cost of his trip.

[dave21478]

 Great, thanks for the heads-up! An imminent new building project and a trip back to UK in 2 weeks time works out nicely.

Are these sorts of cheap prices available everywhere from DIY shops or from builders merchants?

[Théière]

Just come back from Earls Court from the "Home improvement show" were "Green" is definitely the new black. will be watching out for prices on insulation. Wood pulp, multifoil, phenolic, and rock wool.

Some amazing log burners at the show, very efficient ultra modern style and they throw out a lot of heat.

[Chancer]

No Dave, do not even mention B&Q in a builders merchants, whilst everyone else is delighted (especially Knauf) they are livid.

B&Q do the British Gas subsidised insulation and Wickes do the EDF (yes EDF!) subsidised ones, often not quite as cheap but they tend to have it more of the time and also sometimes have 100mm or even 170mm at subsidy price, B&Q sell out very quickly.

Have a look carefully at the web link I think the promo only runs for a week but will if like last year be repeated several times, because they have come under so much pressure from teh merchants they now have signs up saying only for DIY use (it is also printed on the insulatiuon) 100m2 max per customer (I just went more than one time) and it is not to be resold or used overseas, I quite liked that one [:D]

I have serious doubts about the whole global warming CO2 reductions thing etc but it seems to me to be a bit French that EDF dont want their subsidised insulation to find its way back to France, we are heating up the same planet if indeed we are at all.

EDF and British gas are falling over themselves to get rid of most of their carbon taxes in this way as it is the cheapest way of them complying, sending compact flourescent light bulbs to Bolivian households that dont even have electricity has now been knocked on the head, most of them are now being sold at rédéries in my area!

Editted, if the shelves are empty (sometimes it is stocked by the front door to reduce congestion) then have a gander out the back or even at the back of the car park, you may find several artic loads sitting there getting wet, if they cant be bothered to bring it in then you can save them the effort and yourself some money [;-)]

[Théière]

[quote user="Chancer"]

I have serious doubts about the whole global warming CO2 reductions thing etc but it seems to me to be a bit French that EDF dont want their subsidised insulation to find its way back to France, we are heating up the same planet if indeed we are at all.

[/quote]

Doubt all you like, the bottom line is the EU has signed up to reduce CO2 emissions by 20% by 2020 and by 60% by 2050 so old character buildings will have to loose their charm (after all that hardwork re-pointing the stone work) and insulate. Personally I like the sheep's wool insulation but rigid phenolic still doubles the insulation properties for the same thickness.

[Richard51]

[quote user="Théière"].....so old character buildings will have to loose their charm (after all that hardwork re-pointing the stone work) and insulate. [/quote]

The old 18"- 24" thick stone walls are a damn good insulator.  We have them in both UK and France and can tell the difference in both summer and winter.  Cool in summer: warm in winter.  Nevertheless we have 12" of insulation in the loft as well [;-)] - which reduced our oil bills by 75%...

Mrs R51

[sid]

I don't find the 24" thick walls all that great at insulating. A room with external walls and no insulation always feels cool to me; perhaps it just takes until Easter to absorb enough heat? Give me a layer of insulation any day.

Sid

[Théière]

[quote user="Richard51"][quote user="Théière"].....so old character buildings will have to loose their charm (after all that hardwork re-pointing the stone work) and insulate. [/quote]

The old 18"- 24" thick stone walls are a damn good insulator.  We have them in both UK and France and can tell the difference in both summer and winter.  Cool in summer: warm in winter.  Nevertheless we have 12" of insulation in the loft as well [;-)] - which reduced our oil bills by 75%...

Mrs R51
[/quote]

Cool in summer, like a fridge in winter (Tufa stone). once heated of course they retain some heat but steadily and consistently loose this to the outside world. The application of insulation means being able to heat the space with a very small heater and not loose the heat, sadly losing the charm of the stone walls though.

[PaulT]

Last year on a Friday I saw an ad in the paper for insulation - £2.50 a time.

That evening charge down to the local B&Q and eventually found a pallet at the back of the store. Asked if it was ll they had and was told 'no we've got a trailer load out the back - should last for ages'.

Loaded the car and went back a few more times that evening.

Back down on Saturday morning to get some more and back again about lunchtime.

The same chap who told me there was a trailer load said that the few rolls in the store was the last of it.

My roof space must have been one of the best insulated - there were about 36 rolls in it.

Just started to load up the trailer - with the other items to be transported it will take 2 goes.

If it is the same as last year it will all now be sold out.

Last year it said basically only private purchasers - but surprising how many vans there were.

Paul

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="Théière"]

Cool in summer, like a fridge in winter (Tufa stone). once heated of course they retain some heat but steadily and consistently loose this to the outside world. The application of insulation means being able to heat the space with a very small heater and not loose the heat, sadly losing the charm of the stone walls though.

[/quote]

Remember your second form physics: heat gained by cold object equals heat lost by hot object.

The problem with 18" inch thick walls is that they have to heated first in order for you to feel warm. Hence the practice of lighting a fire in October and keeping it going until Spring. The intention is for the walls to become a heat sink which then maintains a comfortable level in the house. Insulated interior walls ensure that the air inside the room only needs heating - much more efficient, and it means that a room becomes comfortable relatively quickly. My French former-barn two bedroom house takes about three days to become warm when I visit it in winter; my modern four-bedroom English house becomes comfortable within 30 minutes.

I've had stone walls in my French house dry-lined (they were rendered already so I haven't lost any attractive features) so I'm expecting it to be more comfortable and usable in winter.

[Théière]

Using a van is much greener than multiple trips in the family car especially as we edge towards 400mm of rock wool or glass fibre as the requirement for insulation. Problem is I would loose all the vaulted timber on show with 400mm, so solid PIR panels, possibly backed up by multifoil.

I have no doubt you will be much warmer on a much lower budget ClarkKent. My walls are all dry lined in the UK with polystyrene backed plasterboard and boy what a difference, turn off radiators most of the time. But the loss of the pierre apparent from the old French house is a big decision.....put off for a while longer but I am going to properly insulate the roof space so it will be ok to have a limb outside of the duvet in winter 

[Alan Zoff]

Does the same apply to a twin brick (the honeycomb type, without cavity) construction, Clark, so that it would be more effective to insulate from the inside rather than apply exterior insulation (which I was contemplating)?

I was opting for exterior for 2 reasons:

1. The house has rendered bare walls with a large roof overhang so should be relatively easy to insulate from outside;

2. Some of the inner walls have the original (c.100 year old) attractive plaster panelling and it would be a shame to remove it or cover it.

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="Alan Zoff"]

Does the same apply to a twin brick (the honeycomb type, without cavity) construction, Clark, so that it would be more effective to insulate from the inside rather than apply exterior insulation (which I was contemplating)?

I was opting for exterior for 2 reasons:

1. The house has rendered bare walls with a large roof overhang so should be relatively easy to insulate from outside;

2. Some of the inner walls have the original (c.100 year old) attractive plaster panelling and it would be a shame to remove it or cover it.

[/quote]

My guess is that it is always better to insulate on the inside rather than the outside. With external insulation you would still have to heat the fabric of the building - though not as much than if there were no insulation. The heat loss from the building to the external environment would certainly be less than you would normally expect. It would be part of the cost you pay in enjoying the building.

[PaulT]

[quote user="Clarkkent"]

My guess is that it is always better to insulate on the inside rather than the outside. With external insulation you would still have to heat the fabric of the building [/quote]

The principal by which storage heaters work - so is that such a bad thing, enabling less variation in temperature?

Paul

[Clarkkent]

PaulT

No, it is not such a bad thing, but the number of calories required to raise the temperature of a cubic metre of stone by one degree is very much greater than that required to raise the temperature of  a cubic metre of air. If you can ensure that it is only the air temperature that you are raising then you will do it more efficiently.

[Chancer]

Plus the bricks in the storage heater slowly release their retained heat into the room being heated, the brick or stone making up the mass of a building release at least half of it to the outside air.

The idea of insulating the external face of the outside walls but not the interior as sugested may have some merit in this regard however the response time of the heating would be very slow.

[BIG MAC]

Hi,

Where & how do I get this stuff at favourable rates? I need loads of it.....Can you get rigid cellotex type stuff under the same scheme?

There's mention of a link but I can't see it?

 

[Chancer]

Sorry I forgot to paste it, here it is: http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=11127503&fh_view_size=150&fh_eds=%3f&fh_location=%2f%2fcatalog01%2fen_GB%2fcategories%3c%7b9372016%7d%2fcategories%3c%7b9372050%7d%2fcategories%3c%7b9372230%7d&fh_refview=lister&ts=1285592811789&isSearch=false&ecamp=eml-wk34-SHOW-DRL-e006

There is another 15% off at the till if you quote OCT1A1, this promo runs till Thursday inclusive but there will be others, you need to keep your ear to the ground, they do tend to advertise it on UK Tv as it brigs people ito the store, other than that they are not that keen on seling it.

I doubt that the cellotex will ever be subsidised as it is not really a DIY product however at the bottom of the link you will see what I think i a cheap extruded poly insulation but they dont say the thickness.

Good luck Mac

[BIG MAC]

Mr Chancer...Thou art a gentleman and a scholar....cheers

[Chancer]

Je vous en prie [:)]

[cruddler]

For those not planning to load up a van in the UK, has anyone come across any decent offers here?

cheers

[Chancer]

Decent offers here in France? That has put a smile on my face Cruddler [:D]

The Knauf Ecosse insulation (its doesnt irritate the skin) is now finally coming down to a sensible (for France) price, before, like everything new it was being sold at a premium, around  €48 for a sllightly smaller roll than the B&Q one, ditto the Isover white insulation.

I have sold all my excess but you may well find once again some enterprising souls reselling it on ebay.fr or Leboncoin.fr, a realistic selling price for a multiple purchase is around €16 per roll, of course you will see some advertised much much higher but its just a French thing, I remember seeing an offcut of BA13 plasterboard, it was less than half a sheet and the guy wanted €15 for it [:-))]

[ericd]

[quote user="Chancer"]I remember seeing an offcut of BA13 plasterboard, it was less than half a sheet and the guy wanted €15 for it [:-))][/quote]

It has always made me laugh....French people (well most of them) over value their stock....it is really comical........A vendre, 12l of paint abc....bought Brico machin €15........will sale at same price.....seen on leboncoin some time ago!!!  [geek]

[Kittycat]

Having read through it seems that no-one considers the floor when discussing insulation. Plenty of people discussing walls & roofs, which are important of course, but many don't realise you can lose up to 20% due to an un-insulated floor. If you neglect this aspect then all the insulation in the world won't make your toes feel warm & snug on a cold winters evening :-)

[Chancer]

Ah the old "up to" again [:)] I suppose a totally uninsulated room with floorboards and an open vide sanitaire underneath may aproach that figure.

In terms of value the money is better spent insulating the ceiling, walls, pont thermique and then the floor in that order.

Mine is a multi-floor partment block so one tenants ceiling insulation is anothers floor insulation although I suspect the energie diagnostiquer will not see it that way!

My pied à terre in England has an uninsulated floor similar to that I described above, I dont know about all the insulation in the world but I find that being in good health, having good circulation and a pair of socks is all I need for warm toes [;-)]

Joking apart it is on my list to do to reduce the electric consumption haveing already done the ceiling and walls.

Editted.

Here in France I have an uninsulated floor, carrelage over sable à lapin over terre battu and I have never had cold feet or toes bu of course I wear something on my feet, not slippers but open sandals.