Woodworm/capricorn treatment

[KathyC]

Hi

We are about to complete on a 1930s house which has a report showing evidence of woodworm and capricorns. I know that there are many treatments available to buy over the counter as opposed to getting the work done professionally. As we will not be living in the house until next year, we wondered about the feasibility of doing it ourselves. I would like to hear from anyone who has done this. I particularly need to know whether you would need to do the whole house in one go, or whether you could, for instance, do one floor each visit. Also, there is some kind of flooring glued down on the ground floor. Would this need to come up to be sprayed or would doing it underneath from the cave be enough? Thanks

[Motorhead]

Is that evidence of having wood boring insects or of having had them?

Ask yourself  is the wood damp enough to support the life of the blighters

[Yvonne]

Hi,

We found evidence of capricorn in a house that we bought 1 year ago. As a result, we received a contribution of 3000 euros from the vendor to cover the cost of profesional treatment. If it is capricorn that you have then they are severely destructive and must be treated asap. The holes that they bore are approx 8mm across - it doesnt take many of these to destroy the roof structure! 

Unfortunately, sorry to bear bad news, you cannot properly treat capricorn yourself as you need to know how to drill the wood (I think its approx every  30cm but I don't know how deep they go) and pump the fluid in. Its then guaranteed for 10 years.

We had our roof space treated - approx 90 - 100m2 and it took the professionals 10 days of work with breathing apparatus. I think the total cost was around 4000 euros, although quotes did vary enormously - some as high as 8000.

Maybe, if you haven't completed yet, you can reduce the offer because of this finding? We managed to  - by way of the vendor  agreeing to give us the 3000euros at the point of sale - the notaire wrote out the cheque at the contract signing meeting.

Good luck!

Abi

[nimportequoi]

Just be careful with the companies who do the treatment, some are a bunch of crooks, especially those who phone up, say they are in the area and will do a free estimate. I had a free devis from one once, who told me all the longere was infested with capricorn and should be treated at once. Having then spoken to some French friends, they told me that it was common for companies like this to take advantage of people and frighten them into treating the wood, when in fact in a lot of cases, the woodworm is no longer active. My house has been 'bien mangée' in the past, but the wood is so hard now that it would be difficult for anything to be active inside. I know I have a problem in one gite within the longere, as there is wood dust evident in April and May, when the woodworm are active. I'm going to treat this myself. As for the rest, I have always assumed - no dust, no problem - I hope I'm right!!

[WJT]

Hi, we have had this discussion recently on another forum. There appears to be some sort of bomb that is said to be very efficient. I have read that treatment by injection is really not effective for a number of reasons. A neighbour in France also swears by these bombs. We have a heavy infestation of active Capricorne, when we return to France we plan on using these bombs ourselves after learning a little more about it. If you would like I will let you know how we get on, that is if you can wait until November, unfortunately, that is when we next plan to visit and give it a go.

[Motorhead]

Susan is quite correct 90% of all people who get it done don't need it. This has been known to  biologists for years. However it's not talked about much because decreasing the market by 90% would make it unaffordable to many who do need it and would stop research to make the treatments safer (to humans).

Safety is of most importance with fumigation being the most harmfull and the toxicity gets less with painted on non -water based treatments then injected and then painted on water soluble (and water- soluble can't be used for injection). Ill health through peticides gets more common the thinner people get as the toxins get stored in  fat, away from the nerves.

Frass (the powder that they egest, it's not sawdust) is no evidence of a recent infection at all. Many other insects make their homes in old holes and push out the frass because they don't like it either and the insects that cause it don't push it all out (they're like moles in this case) This means  that the frass that's put out by harmless insect is actually more easily found because there's more of it.

http://www.ask-jeff.co.uk/building-woodworm.htm  which is a very good rescource on non termitic wood boring insects. His biology is spot on.

 

[WJT]

Hi Motorhead, very informative and has definitely put doubts in my mind about using the bombs. We do know we have an infestation because we can hear the Capricorne (longhorn beetle) very clearly eating away at the wood (quite maddening in fact). One thought is perhaps it would be safe if we set the bombs off when we are ready to leave and the house would be unoccupied for a few months or do you feel that it would still be a danger?

[Dave&Olive]

hi

  like the man said once you get the moisture contents of the wood below 12% they will not live ,spent a few hundred euros and a lot of time spraying only to find this out after....

        or in other words live in the house

           best I can do

 

            dave

[Motorhead]

There are bombs and there are bombs. For the ones that work it is highly sensible to depopulate the building for at least a month. Even after a few months there will still be some toxicity but I don't think it would be a problem unless you were very very thin.

ps Dave, as usual, talks great sense.

pps Dave, I've PM'd you.

[Ron Avery]

I posted a bit in reply to Abi's post last week about injection agreeing that it was the only treatment for wood thicker than 25mm, and about the number of holes necessary for injection but it has gone, don't know why? Only mentioned xylophene, not a property website

But anyway, you do not have to have pressure injection holes every 30 cms, they usually do 4 or 5 at the ends of beams nearest to the walls as most treatments are not just for capricorne also termites, the fluid soaks along the beam.  From experience I can tell you you do not know you have termites until the beam breaks or someone stick a screwdriver into it

All the Brit areas in  the SW except 09 have communes where termites have been found, 17, 24, 33 ,40 and 47 are particularly at risk of termites

Not sure I have ever heard capricorn "at work", termites can be detected though by sound munching away though your beams. 

I get worried when I hear people talking about not treating capricorne, the French did not when they built the houses or after, that is why houses all over the country are riddled with it.

Susan H you are kidding yourself if you think your wood is too hard for infestation, they love hardwoods

 Surely the whole point of a treatment Dave is not just curative but also preventative, wood treatment with xylophene is just not for capricorne des maisons , it is for all insectes xylophages, like lyctus, anobium and hymenopteres (wood wasps)  also champignons,  no not mushrooms, fungus

I am satisfied that my treatment was, necessary and value for money, it gives me peace of mind, OK proof of pudding is if I have claim in the 10 years but company is established and all who used them round here were impressed by the work.

[andyh4]

I am with you Ron.  The liquid treatments do go deep into the wood without the need for extensive drilling - especially if the coats are correctly applied one after the other before each dries.

 

I simply cannot see how the bombs (which are basically just distributing a solid powder as I understand it) are supposed to penetrate deep into the wood.  And if they do, how do you stop them penetrating deep into your storage cupboards and contaminating the tins and packets containing your food stuffs, your cutlery and china - in fact every surface that you will come into contact with when you return.

 

 

[Motorhead]

"Not sure I have ever heard capricorn "at work", termites can be detected though by sound munching away though your beams."

Can be at least with a stethoscope

"Susan H you are kidding yourself if you think your wood is too hard for infestation, they love hardwoods"

Yes but only the outer sapwood

"Surely the whole point of a treatment Dave is not just curative but also preventative, wood treatment with xylophene is just not for capricorne des maisons , it is for all insectes xylophages, like lyctus, anobium and hymenopteres (wood wasps) also champignons, no not mushrooms, fungus"

None of these beasties can live below the 11/12% moisture barrier except for termites which is why they are so voracious and why you need a survey for them where it's warm enough for them to live that's why I said  that it is a very good rescource on non termitic wood boring insects. His biology is spot on.

 

"I am with you Ron. The liquid treatments do go deep into the wood without the need for extensive drilling - especially if the coats are correctly applied one after the other before each dries."

Yes but the poster could hear them so they were not that deep

"I simply cannot see how the bombs (which are basically just distributing a solid powder as I understand it) are supposed to penetrate deep into the wood. And if they do, how do you stop them penetrating deep into your storage cupboards and contaminating the tins and packets containing your food stuffs, your cutlery and china - in fact every surface that you will come into contact with when you return."

Proper fumigation can get everywhere but when I said depopulate I really meant depopulate - everythinng out. I know I've fumigated grain stores and there you take out everything but the rats.

[WJT]

When we bought the house last year, the house was inspected for termites and asbestos which is required of the seller by law in the Dordogne.  We stupidly didn't see the small print, the report declared that the property was termite free but a box was ticked stating (in French of course) that the property had other infestations.  We have had several specialist companies out and they have stated that we have an active infestation of Capricorne. You CAN hear them with the naked ear. In fact you do not even have to try, we can hear them just going about our business (maddening). We were told that this is classic for Capricorne.  We have also been told they only eat the softwood just as Motorhead said not the heart of hardwood. However, we have also been told if they were left untreated for many years they could potentially do structural damage.

I am now worried about our French neighbour because he said that he will set the bombs off and leave the house for a few hours and return. He then repeats this a few weeks later to ensure that the eggs are killed off.  He has not mentioned anything about any health hazards.

Anyone (French in particular) that we have spoken to about this say that every old house in the Dordogne has them and you just get used to living with them .  This is the reason we are looking for other ways if we know the injections are hit and miss for 4,500 euros we are willing to give it a go.  By the way, we met an English couple that live there full time and spent 8,000 euros (converted barn with loads of beams) for treatment and still have them. The company that provided the treatment gave them a ten year guarantee and so far the fellow has come back a few times for further treatment and they still hear them. More confused then ever now but still like the idea of giving the bombs a try just don't know how we will be able to do it again a few weeks after the first one.

[andyh4]

You can do this yourself and save a stack of money - but of course you get no guarantee.  It is dirty, uncomfortable and not the thing you really want to be doning in mid summer with the sun beating down on the roof just outside.

 

safety equipment - disposable overalls, gloves, goggles, respirator for handling aerosols (not a little cloth pad for putting over nose and mouth) and if you are as ham fisted as me - wellies.

sprayer - garden type - I prefer the deluxe version with a pressure gauge so you know when to reprime rather than noting that the spray seems a bit weak.

 

Materials - available in all Bricos in 20/25/30 litre drums.  Read all of the safety advice.

 

Preparation . if you have really badly affected areas, brush down with a wire brush to remove most of the loose half eaten debris.  Then clean up as best you can all the dust and dirt that inevitably accummulates in unused attics.  Clear everything you do not want to treat out of the attic.

 

Don all your safety gear.  fill the spray to maximum and pump up to pressure.

Aim spray head at area to be treated.  press handle to activate.  Thoroughly wet all surfaces.  Pay particular attention to end grain - even when or especially if you cannot get directly to it.  Where end grain buts up to another piece of timber, get lots into the joints.  Treat all wood - even if it looks to be unaffected.

Before the first coat dries, go over again with a second coat.

Before the second coat dries, give it a third.

 

Each coat will sink deeper into the wood, but on large beams you will not get 100% penetration.  Never mind.  when they burrow their way out to mate they have to go through the bits you have treated and end up with a bad dose of coitus interuptus.

 

Next spring check for signs of fresh infestation - frass - and be prepared to spray again (even if it is actually some harmless beast pushing the frass out - better safe than reinfested.

 

The treatment is supposed to be good for 10 years according to the drums.

 

 

 

[andyh4]

Oh, and don't be a cheap-skate.  Chuck away (preferably burn on a closed fire or bonfire - but make sure the solvents have dried first) the overalls and gloves and be prepared to change the filter in the respirator at regular intervals.

 

 

[WJT]

Hi Andyh4, gosh, that puts me right off painting and spraying it myself. However, I meant that perhaps we would give the bombs a try before leaving the property for a few months, not hours like my neighbour

[KathyC]

Hi again

Thanks to everyone who took the trouble to answer my post. Your views seem to separate into two camps.

1. Capricorns will eat your house around your ears and the only way to deal with them is professionally and at great cost.

2. Most houses will have evidence of woodboring insects, but most of this will be from capricorns long gone. Chemical treatments can be damaging to the health of the human residents as well as the bugs and all you need is to keep your house dry, lived in and you will have no trouble.

Confused - you bet!

I wonder if these two views divide in any way along UK/French lines? My experience of buying older houses in the UK is that the building societies always want woodworm treatment (and damp proof course) as standard. I have a feeling that the French are probably more pragmatic about these things - various French immobiliers have said to me that "all houses have woodworm". Being cynical, you could argue that they would say that.

Of course, I hope the second view is right because it would save me money and health worries. But wishing for something doesn't make it so.

My plan: go to France next week to complete on house, having checked that it's still standing. Take dehumidifier and run it in various rooms. Poke round trying to see if any wood dust looks old or new. Prod various wood, beams etc. to see if they collapse. Stand very quietly and try to hear the little ******s munching. Cross fingers. Repeat process every visit over next six months until we move in next May. Try to keep a few thousand in reserve in case we are actually being devoured.

I suppose half of you will think this sensible and the other half will feel it to be madness. I'd welcome any comments.

By the way, in the parasite report the phrase "degradations de capricorns" is used (rather too often for my liking). Does this just mean evidence of their existence - past or present not stated?

Apologies for a long post, and thanks again.

[Ron Avery]

Kathy

You are right there is a UK and French view which you have summarised perfectly,the UK have a thing about woodworm, the FRench do not, having seen the holes a capricorne leaves I can see why woodworm are not a great worry here, they can also be easily treated with a spray or piant treatment

I don't buy this dry wood thing means no capricorn, surely there is a residual moisture content in all wood and the air.  As far as I am aware, what you have is capricorn having eaten into the outer layer of your wood, in time this will crumble and fall off or you can cut it away, that exposes the next layer and so on over a number of years.  The pro treatments are effectve against a number of pests and nobody in France can say that in the next five years they will not get termites in their area  At least I know that if I have had pests and they have gone, they ain't coming back for a while..

[Dave&Olive]

or learn to play the zylophone ...      the  French reckon it will kill any thing ........       

       any one play the bagpipes......

              dave

[Ron Avery]

[quote]or learn to play the zylophone ... the French reckon it will kill any thing ........ any one play the bagpipes......

[Motorhead]

Ron

I hope you don't try an experiment on yourself.The wood boring insect threshold for tolerating low moisture conditions is way lower than the human one. However, there is still a limit which is achievable for non termites.

You can prevent the blighters coming in the first place by sealing up all the cracks in the wood. Only the grubs can actually eat the wood, the parents can only deposit the eggs in cracks.

Dave

Bagpipes are traditional round here! Did you get my email about the phone no.

Kathy

I think if they were active it would say activite.

[Ron Avery]

Hi MH  While your science and theory may be correct, a couple of flaws, the termites may have already been in your wood when it was installed.  Pre-treated wood was rare in France up to a short time ago, AND how can you seal up all the cracks in your beams when all the ends where the termites get in are buried in 2 feet thick walls???

[laazar]

I think te best treatment is microwave shashel. fry all B-)