Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com

Hi Jane, have you looked in the small electrical tools section of your local Obry? They have moderate sized tools, not just big stuff. (I'm afraid I don't know Myfords). You ought to have one in Cahors, if not, Brive la Gaillarde has about 4 different quite good DIY shops, incuding Obry. If you want  more info, come back to me and I can tell you their names and where to find them. Brive's only about an hour north of you up the A20.

Groan, Arnold... you said  Ian, I'm not bringing hotel thinking to the arguement. You may not think you are, but sadly, your whole way of thinking is that of someone offering meals./service to the public. But that's not what happens in a CdH. In effect, we "invite" the people sleeping in our few rooms to share our meal. They pay, sure, but they aren't the public. However, the rule barring you from offering a choice could not be enforced against you if you chose to offer a choice to said diabetic. As I've said before, YOU try telling the petty official whose restaurateur brother is grumbling about unfair competition, that he "can't enforce" these rules. If only we could get something definite in writing from our local prefecture/service des comsommateurs (who shouldn't _really_ be involved either, afaiac) about what they consider to be the limits, it would be wonderful, but they won't of course, in case we ever quote it back! In the meantime, the best we can do is to take a pretty conservative view of the rules, and then apply them with flexibility.

Hi, At last I can get to Coco's points, whew. You ask:- You don't get many children because you don't target that area?  I don't know, to be honest. I mustn't mislead you and say we NEVER get any, but honestly, we don't get much demand. That may be because of the facilities we have and/or don't have, or because of what the guides say, or don't say, or just because this area isn't really that popular with families with small children. That said, as for converting demand to bookings, I don't think more than one or two families with children a year who call us don't book, if we've got space for them. But for whatever reason, I'd say that less than 10% of our business,  maybe even less than 5% is of families with children. We only have one single room that is large enough to accommodate more than two people, no matter what age. While we have a double and twin upstairs, which is perfectly suitable for a family of four, it does work out a bit more expensive than a single room with a double and two singles, or a single suite. And parents might have some reluctance about putting a 3 y.o. and a 5 y.o. in a room on their own. So, by the nature of the house we converted, we CAN'T target families with small children and in fact I don't really know what I would actually DO - in terms of publicity - if I did want to. However, within a week of opening I had to quickly adapt as every single French and Dutch enquiry I received asked if we could take their children.  So, a quick visit to the supermarket to buy a blow-up mattress and a travel cot and now we can offer a "family" room too.  That's amazing. We do HAVE a cot, and maybe use it once or twice a year. But again, that's only really do-able in one room. I don't think I would compromise the cointreau or kirsch in the mousse (I get too many compliments) just because there was a child present.  I have done so in the past and it is still too rich for such young children. A scoop of vanilla ice cream goes down a lot better! Grin!!! I thought that might get a rise . It's fascinating to see what you do, though, as it's so widely different from us. We're very used, in this area, to see the entire family out for a long-drawn out Sunday lunch, with everyone from great-granny to the youngest, staying at table till gone 4pm. The littlies usually have a colouring book or similar, but generally, they are more or less at table throughout the time. All that to say that I assumed it was the norm, and so that's what WE do. OK, it all depends upon the ages. Kids are free to come and go, when we eat under the Auvent, inside, we're a little more directive as we eat in our sitting room, and can't really have the kids throwing food over the persian carpet! But we can put a cartoon on the TV for them which tends to make everyone happy.  As for the food, we do such a wide variety of dishes, that if we have kiddies, I simply tend to plan a meal that they will enjoy with minimal changes - undressed salad, for example, or a non alcoholic pud. But honestly, we get so little demand that it's honestly not an issue. Ian, you say you do the same as Alan, but I believe that Alan was saying he does the same as me, he offers chicken for the children but still cooks two separate meals because his own young children wouldn't eat what he serves for his guests. I may have misread/misunderstood his comments, I took him to mean that he tried to see if the kids would eat the same as the parents, making minimal changes if possible. That's what I meant to say I more or less do. But, as I said above, we do so MANY different dishes, on a more or less regular basis, that we can always plan a meal that will suit just about every one.  In the store cupboard (cellar actually) we have about 12 home made soups in jars. Leek and potato, split pea, hoppin john, chestnut and apple, crecy (carrot and potato), cepe consommé, cream of mushroom, cajun 15 bean, french onion, palestine (fartichoke) and cream of tomato. Ok, eleven. Well, no matter what the diet, ONE of these will be fine. Apart from our stand-bys of home made tins of terrine, and charcuterie, I counted recently (I'm working on putting up our favourite recipes on our web site) that we do about 25 different starters more or less regularly, ranging from a simple tomato salad to imam bayeldi and risotto milanese, and passing through quiches, guacamole and so on. Again, no matter WHAT people like or dislike, I can find something to please, without the others feeling deprived. So it is for the main course, and the cheeses. As for puds, we always have about three home made ice creams in stock, as well as the magnificent Thiriet vanilla, which is better than I can make and which again make a very suitable fall back if I'm a bit worried as to whether little Aurelie would want to eat my Clafoutis (with loads of alcohol in it) or the soupe de fraises (just coming into season).  So, not trying to brag (it was my job) it is dead easy for us to plan a meal that everyone from about 6 upwards will eat. And yes, we DO have elderly grannies, and great grannies, who want fairly simple food. No probs. L&P soup, quiche lorraine, salt baked magret with roasted potato cubes and a green salad, cheeses and strawberry ice cream. They eat half portions of that, and toddle off to bed as happy as Larry! Of course, one very important thing about what we do here, which is probably different from you, is that we NEVER do a meal "au pif". We make it very clear in our pub, that we don't do meals every day and that they must be ordered in advance. So I am never faced with the unexpected, or practically never.  We're very lucky, in that there's an Auberge in the village about 100 yards from us, so people can always eat without clambering back into their car again.  All that, means that we simple don't ever feel the need to do a separate menu. (That said, we WILL be feeding a vegetarian (no fish either) in July, and will probably do HER a special main dish).  So the question still remains..... by doing this would a French official class me as being acceptable within the bounds of flexibility, or am I a restaurant? And my answer (my own opinion, which is not to be considered as more than that rather than that of someone charged with investigating abuses for Gites de France), would be that as long as you aren't regularly offering more than one menu, but rather seeking to adapt your food to the varying needs of your clients, you're OK. But no doubt, if you were to step on some influential toes somewhere and/or fall foul of a persnicketty official, you might be in some trouble if you cooked more than one main course on a regular basis. Hope that helps.

Hi again. Before getting down to Cocos' comments, there one brief thing I want to say to Arnold and his comments about European Antidiscriminatory legislation. Your thinking is - once again - hotel thinking. They don't apply to us who run CdH. In most of the texts that do discuss CdH, we are considered to be _private_ houses. That's NOT true for you, of course. So, - I don't know how to say this more politely - I do wish you wouldn't bring YOUR hotel type thinking to bear on OUR situation in CdH, because in many respects we're on different sides of the fence. Take this analogy. Say I invite you and your family to eat with me, I am not obliged - by European law - to cater for your hypothetical coeliac daughter, your hypothetical diabetic wife, or your hypothetical muslim son-in-law. (My personal rules of politeness might make me want to provide a meal they can all eat, but there's NO obligation to do so). And TdH is treated exactly the same way. Fundamentally, the rules/definitions of TdH say that it is deemed to be people who pay to join our family style meal, (and the definitions say, "that means one table one meal, and one single service").  So legislation applying to meals offered to the public simply don't apply.  

Hi, Very deep sigh. I just spent an hour answering this thread and Internet exploder ate the lot. GRRRR. Sorry about by delay in replying - sometimes I actually have to DO table d'hôtes! Quillan says. (By the way Quillan, I've no probs if you disagree with me, and of course you must say so if you do! After all, that's what gives life to the Forum). as these may be the rules as applied to members of Gite de France to Chambres D’Hôtes and Table D’Hôtes but not necessarily to non members. No, Quillan, that's absolutely not the case. The definition that I posted of TdH comes from a Tourist Ministry document, not from a GdF document. In any case, as Buns says, it would be ludicrous for TdH to be defined one way for GdF and another for Clévacances and a third for anyone running CdH but NOT in either of these organisations. No these definitions are underwritten by the Ministry of Tourism. BUT, I must admit that I somewhat oversimplified this, when I talked before, though without in any way misleading you. It is perfectly true that GdF DID sit down and hammer out these definitions of TdH, with "the man from the ministry" and with representatives of the traditional french food industry. They were hammered out with the twin objectives of allowing people to eat local food prepared by (originally) local farmers, on the one hand and to protect hotels and restaurants from (what they felt was) unfair competition on the other. However, don't forget that GdF IS a quango, and therefore it's reasonable that when the Tourist ministry goes to look for a definition of TdH, it will go to the work of its tame quango, and that's what happened here. But I repeat and will go on repeating, the definition I quoted, was from a document issued by the Ministry of Tourism. However, there's no point in looking for a law as such, with definitions and penalties laid out for infraction. It doesn't exist, as you say. From what I understand of reading the dense text in french parliamentary web pages, there have been several discussions of this and the minister has promised to put legislation before the house. However, it hasn't happened yet, and between the intention to do so, and the completion of stages 1)the law is voted 2) it is passed as being acceptable by the constitutional committee 3) a decret d'application is issued, there is a a lot of water. However the definition of TdH DOES exist, independantly of GdF and even though GdF was instrumental in drawing them up. So, even if nation wide LAWS don't exist, the definition does. Any prefect is free to act as if such definitions DID have the weight of law, or to create byelaws that do enact them, which is what has happened in Paris and what may be happening elsewhere. So although the "Loi machin" defining Table d'hote and other paraprofessional tourist activities hasn't been proposed, passed, or applied, nevertheless definitions as I have already posted do most certainly exist and the consequences of non conformity are (as I posted) stated. So, sorry Quillan, but you're plumb mistaken in thinking that they only apply to GdF. They apply industry wide, though it could perfectly well be true that no one apart from GdF makes any effort to do anything about imposing them. Coming now to this:- The documents I have posted are ONLY for the Paris region and they both VERY clearly state that there is no reference in French law as to the definition of what Chambres D’Hôtes and Table D’Hôtes really are. The prefecture can however create local laws which is what they have done in Paris. At the same time, this is both true and misleading. The legislation is only in place in Paris, but they draw on a definition that is created by the Ministry. So the gloss that Paris gives to explain exactly what is meant by one menu, may only be legally binding - in terms of laid down penalties - there, but is quite clearly taken from, and implied in the definitions - Arnold's desperate attempts to redefine french words to suit his own wishes notwithstanding. What the Paris document does is to explain in words of one syllable for hair splitters, how the nationally relevant definitions are meant to be understood. I am surprised to see you bringing up this question of local food again. GdF in their publicity says to people that they could expect to find it, but both Miki and I have explained that there's absolutely NOTHING in the GdF rules to say that it must be. And even it it were, it would be perfectly valid to use local ingredients in any way you like. So if I choose to buy a local chicken and then cook it as a tandoori, that's entirely within the rules. So please, I BEG of you don't keep on harping on this non existent constraint just to argue against it!! I'll briefly deal with Arnold's point about European Legislation. He's not right (see my next post), but even if he were that's almost entirely irrelevant. It's on a par with other famous last words. "I have right of way". "Amanita Phalliodes doesn't grow in the open". "They never attack humans". If he wants to take on the entire weight of French bureacracy and tell them that they have no right to say this, that or the other, because European legislation won't allow it, that's his affair. But I feel it's grossly irreponsible to suggest to the rest of us that we should offer several alternative menus, because of European anti-discriminatory legislation. And Arnold.-  "Une seule table", "un seul menu". MEANS "Only one table" "only one meal". Wriggle all you like, all the evidence is that that's what's meant and that definition is what you can expect to be considered fair by the local bureaucracy.

Hi zeb, The most effective for any given thickness is the new hi-tech multi layer reflective stuff. A devil of a price, but you get as much insulation for 1 cm as you would for 20 cm of glass fibre. The next best is closed cell polyurethane (BASF, I think). It's green and sort of interlocks. 5cms is the equivalent of 20 cms fibreglass. (We used it when we didn't want to lose too much floor area). You can tuck it behind the platerboard rails that you put up to screw the plasterbaord to). Then comes polystyrene, either on its own or backed onto plasterboard. The easiest way to fix it, is using pregycolle, by the way. You make plots of the glop every 20/30 cms or so, and then press it up against the (dust free) wall. Make sure your alignement is spot on. Ity can be quite tricky to screw through 10cms of polysturene foam insulation into the rail.

Miki, What ever is the matter with you? I wasn't lecturing you or anyone. I was a bit bemused that's all. You really do seem to have got out of bed the wrong side this morning.

Hi Miki, "Calm down dear, it's not a real mouse"!! First of all the reason I talked about frying a Croque Monsieur is because that IS the original recipe. I can't be held responsible for the dumbing down of the original recipe by lazy and greedy fast order chefs the length and breadth of France. Secondly, yes, as a chef, I'm only too well aware of the individuality of taste, and my "don't you DARE" was meant to be a jokey bit of hyperbole. And it seems to me that in a forum dealing with food and wine, publishing a recipe for something people say they don't like, is entirely appropriate. WHEN the reason they don't like it, is because they've never had the real thing. I spend a lot of time explaining to my french guests that English food IS excellent, and that the reason they didn't like what they had when they ordered roast lamb in a Seaside Caff, was because it was a vile perversion of the real thing. And so it is with Croque Monsieur, IMO. So, if you can get access to really good examples of the 3-4 basic ingredients, try it, especially if you have a sandwich maker, you just MIGHT be agreeably surprised.

To those who are grumbling about the rules here, Living France pays for this forum, they provide it and they decide the rules. You don't like it? So p*** off and play somewhere else. Better still, create your own forum, where you can make any rules YOU like and apply them any way that pleases you. In the meantime, just read what LF says in their intro, and what they say at the top of every page. Is it all too hard to understand? Jeepers, I have some sympathy for the irritation my Oz friends feel sometimes. "Bl**ding whingeing poms".

Hi, Croque Monsieur. I'm a little dazed about this. Mind you, I've not ordered one in a bar for years, so I havan't much idea as to what you get. For me, a croque monsieur is a sandwich of gruyere and ham, fried. I think it's delicious. If you've got one of those toasted sandwich makers that were so fashionable some years ago, try making your croque monsieur in that. BUT. Remember that as always the quality of your basic ingredients is crucial, especially when you've really only got 4 of them! Decent bread. Sliced reasonably thin (already we've lost 99%). Take your two slices. On one slice, place a thickish (none of that filthy prepack) slice of good "jambon blanc", in this area there's a market stall who do freshly cooked ham, that's the sort of stuff. On top of that slice of ham, place an equally thick slice of good gruyère - you may have to use comté here in France, but let it be a "comté affiné", not those plastic wrapped abominations from the supermarket. Now if you feel like it, you can put a very thin spread of chutney. It's not in the least bit authentic, but it makes a pretty yummy addition. Put the other slice of bread on top. Trim round the edges. Now, traditionally you would fry this sandwich on both sides in a little very hot clarified butter. What we do, is to very thinly butter both outsides of the sarnie, and pop it in the sandwhich toaster, till nicely browned and crispy. Eat while still piping hot. And then DARE to come back and tell me it's yucky.

Hi Margaret, you said:- Re dessert wines from this part of the world.  We keep a wine diary, usually by removing labels and writing comments on the back.  What an interesting way of doing it. I tend to go to a lot of tastings and there I write more formal tasting notes. When I'm drinking, I tend now, just to drink, though when I was younger and learning, I made a point of writing some kind of note maybe a very brief one only, in a little notebook. I'm looking here at a reference for a bottle (50 cl) of Chateau Monbazillac '98 purchased earlier this year from, of all places, the very unromantic surroundings of le Clerc in St Foy la Grande.  We paid Euros 10 for it. A very good E Leclerc, I nearly always get my petrol there, when in the area. And don't knock them for wine. While they won't stock the best from the best producers, that's not their fault, but because the small producers refuse to sell to them, as they refuse to sell to any Grande Surface. They then say that the Grandes Surface never have any interesting wine!! As for Ch Monbaz, they're not my fave, which isn't meant to be a criticism, really. At this level it's often a matter of a personal preference as to style. Just as I tend to prefer wines that Jancis likes, to Parker's choice. I'm sure I'm going to be accused, possibly rightly, of pretentious drivel but tasting notes include:  initially "smooth, almonds, honey, ripe melon not overwhelming, lingering sweetness, impressive", moving on 15 mins after opening to "a richer, bitter sweetness".  I don't find your comments in the least pretentious. What vocabulary CAN you use when describing these luscious wines? Sweet, sour, salt, bitter are the only tastes there are, and they don't really go far to help someone who's never tasted a wine to share your pleasure. The entire wine tasting vocabulary has to be by analogy, and with reference to our memory of other foodstuffs. As for your notes, I'd say theyr'e about spot on, though the touch of bitterness as the wine opens out is a little worrying. I think that it's due to pressing the grapes too hard, and I find it too often in Sauternes nowadays. What I looked for in your notes was some comment on the sweet/acid/dfruit balance, which is what - for me - sorts out the sheep from the goats. quite different to our usual Sauternes or Beaumes de Venise, there was a distinctly sharper flavour too it with a slight hint of bitterness at the back of the throat.  Anyone else concur? Well now. Beaumes de Venise is entirely different of course. It's a vin "muté" made by adding alcohol to the fermenting must. It's also made from the muscat grape, so it's related - though far better - to the mass of Muscats from the Mediterranean coast from Greece to Portugal. Which one do you have? From the cave co-operative? The one with the rather knobbly ovalish bottle?   It's good, but if ever you can try Domaine Durban's offering. An order better IMO. All these muscats lack balancing acidity, although their better performance in this is one thing that makes Muscat de Beaumes de Venise the best of the muscats and the "DD" better from my point of view. Many Muscats, can be a bit cloying. As for Sauternes, they vary so widely, (as do Monbazillacs for that matter), that it's hard to generalise. There's a universe of difference between the generic "Sauternes" in a poor year, from the typical Grande Surface, and Ch Suduiraut 1990. (There's a world of difference in the prices too). Your Ch Monbazillac is in the mould of the top Sauternes, in principle. It's interesting that you should have picked out those two elements of sharpness and bitterness. The bitterness is (IMO) a slight fault that I tend to find more in Sauternes than stickies from the Bergeracois, and is one of the reasons I'm not that emballé by the one you got. The slightly higher acidity (sharpness) is something I really like in these Bergerac wines, it's often caused by using a higher proportion of the Muscadelle grape, which although it does get attacked by pourriture noble, manages to retain a higher acidity than the Sémillon grape. Also, they often chaptalise less, and that, too, tends to keep a better balancing acidity. Woops.. Sorry. I've written a blooming treatise! Next time you're going round the roundabout in front of Leclerc, head on towards Bergerac and turn right to Razac de Saussignac and pop in on my friends Gérard & Nathalie Cuisset at Ch Miaudoux. Try their Saussignac and see how it compares (you'll need to chat in french, with them). Give them my best. It's too long since last I saw them.

Hi, Coco asks/says:- We often have people with children under 7 who wouldn't eat most of the dishes on offer.  Interesting... we don't, but then we don't really target a British clientèle, honestly, except through Sawday, and of course the AA Guide (which has never brought us one person). Also, although we do accept young children, our rooms aren't really set up for family occupancy and so we tend not to have too many families with small children, and most are French. So, we can't really say "as a rule" we do this, every case is different and we decide what to do on the basis of what the parents say. I usually offer to do a burger and chips or chicken and chips and ice cream for the little ones.  I don't think we'd ever do that. But maybe, if we had hordes of British families, we might. I honestly don't know. At the moment, we TRY to do what Alan does, which is to do the same food for both. As I said, nearly all our children are French (I'm tempted to say "thank heavens" if Coco is right about the reluctance of British kids to eat what is put before them) and as I already make a point of asking guests what their dietary requirements are, it's relatively easy to extend that to their children. So if the parents say "Oh our children are well brought up, they try everything" - an answer we nearly always get - then I don't feel I need to do a separate main course. However, I WILL plan a meal that is designed not to test them too far . For example, I'd not do the highly spiced Moroccan Shepherds Pie we did last night, but maybe a braised pork roast, or chicken in the Romertopf. If on the other hand, the parents were to say that the children were a little difficult, I have a stand-by that I often make under those circumstances!! I do Lasagne al Forno, or another pasta dish. It's a sweat to do, but is worth it to see their faces. In high summer, we often do a barbecue, and if I'm doing magret de Canard (I often do),  I'd have little hesitation about doing it even for British children as well.  So that's our way of dealing with it. We still try to keep to the principle of one menu, but remaining realistic and flexible. I don't think I'd expect a british child to be very happy about raw ham as a starter, no matter how good it is, so I'd either plan a terrine that day, or have a slice of "jambon blanc" and tomato in reserve. what (English) 4 year old is going to eat beef bourgignon and gratin dauphinois followed by chocolate/cointreau mousse? I'd make the mousse without the cointreau for once, and maybe offer ham with the gratin. But only because we don't often have many young british children. So please don't think I'm criticising in any way.

Harry's anything (Absolutely foul muck masquerading under the name of "bread". Tripe, andouillettes, fromage frais (rotten milk generally) Crème fraîche (waste of good cream to rot it). Bad copies of good cheeses. Brawn (oops, sorry, that's english - err. umm) fromage de tête. As others have said, those revolting semi sweet crumbly things people spoil foie gras and smoked salmon with. French smoked salmon, almost all smoked fish as found here. Winkles & Whelks - err, oops Bigorneaux & Bulots, and most raw shellfish. Perverting perfectly good dishes from other countries. I most certainly don't agree that _in general_ food in the UK is better than it is in Frence, even if the quality here has sunk like a stone in the last 30 years and things have improved beyond belief in the UK recently. One of our local places "Chez Gilberte" will put on a 5 course workman's lunch, with wine, for €11. OK, the pud will be pretty quelconque, but the rest will be fine. Where in the UK can you hope to find anything any where near that? So let's not fall into the french trap of denigrating other cuisines in an attempt to be proud of out own.

Hi Tony, You said >Ian,Your list of addresses would be very much appreciated,>most of the wines I have bought to date have been the more >commercially available and well known producers.I will be >down in August to stock up again. Sure. no problems. I've emailed.

Sue, I suggest you ask your project manager to go and talk to the Mairie to reassure himself. I know that if I were the maire's secretary and had said "Do this", and my "administré" went and did the opposite, I'd be peeved. (thought.... why did they ask me?) Dare I suggest that they have probably had a few other cases of your type through their hands and know what the local DDE do in such cases. Seriously, my first thought was to reply "Bad project manager, change the project manager"!! You ain't going to change the Mairie!

Hi, As always in France, you don't draw the line! You know the rules, and you apply most of them, most of the time and with intelligence and commonsense. There are two quite different issues here it seems to me. 1 Do we know what the rules are? 2. How do we apply them? What I (and Miki too, it seems to me) have been saying is that we MUST know what we're supposed to be doing, and we mustn't be seen to be systematically going against the principles that goevern what we are. I've eaten at a CdH that had two great trestle tables running along the length of this great cavernous room, there must have been space for 30 people easily. Now don't tell ME they were never full to capacity. The owner grilled lamb chops for us all until we were falling off our seats, and it was all a joyous bordel. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. Equally, one of our guests once was visiting family and asked if we could feed them too. Sure we could, and so we were over capacity for our table (and our CdH too for that matter). We grabbed another table, and did spit roast pork on the BBQ for everyone. But I've also seen people here (not Arnold, btw) who say they offer several different priced menus (I presume that's for the same meal, though I suppose - it had never occurred to me till this instant - it's possible that all they ever cooked was four menus, and so when a guest booked they were told, "These are our menus, which do you want?" ) and whose web sites show lots of little tables. There's no WAY they're doing TdH, and I expect that sooner or later they'll get into deep doodoo. And like Maggi, we often have come to the sort of arrangement with our local hotelier/restaurant friends that she describes. I have translated most of their menus (get a free meal for that, usually) for them and often get a phone call "Hey, got any room?" But that's _because_ they know we do care about playing fair with them, as much as anything, I'm sure.

[quote]Anyone else getting rather tired telling callers that you are full from the 4/5th until the 8th May ? Good for filling all your friends and colleagues but now...............[/quote] Hi, GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. I had exactly that, until last night, when one of two couples who'd booked ages ago, phoned to say that because the father of the wife of the other couple (if you see what I mean!!) had died of an embolism in Portugal, there would only be the two of them coming! So now we still have one room free. And naturally we still haven't filled it yet, as it was too late. Nothing we can do about it, of course.

Hi, Arnold says:- go along to the folk that actually regulate the thing, as you suggested, but to show them a menu with choices. Are you telling me that they would reject a typical menu that we, as a family dining alone, would present because it had (as it normally would) two different starters, two (or sometimes three) different mains and a couple of different desserts. Yes Arnold that's EXACTLY what I'm saying, whether your family has always done it or not, it isn't the norm here in France. Then :- >Which isn't to say that when serving an entrée, for example, there couldn't be paté, jambon cru and salad, and that one person might take paté, another the salad and the third all three. But isn't that what I'm saying? Doing that gives a choice of three starters. No, no. no!! I serve ONE starter, consisting of all three things, I'm expecting all my guests to help themselves to all three. When it comes to mains, I may very well have a roast leg of lamb, cooked on a bed of roasted veggies, with some roast spuds alongside. I may have another veg or two. But there _isn't_ a choice there, even if one of my guests may decide not to have the roasted vegetables, or that the spuds are too fattening. There is ONE main course which consists of a number of components, which I will be expecting ALL my guests to take in fact, as I've already asked them if they don't like anything. A restaurant menu may well offer a choice of main dishes, Cotes de porc a la Normande, blanc de poulet garni or Dos de Cabillaud. I specifically asked about this sort of choice, and was told that it is NOT permitted as it brings us too close to competing with a restaurant.  Buns asks:- Can you let me have a link for the document you quote from, I would be most interested to see the up to date position. I'm afraid I don't have one. I have it in hard copy form. Maybe if you were to get in touch with Gites de France head office in your region. I fully accept, by the way, that you are running a CdH in full compliance with the rules - though it CAN be hard to work out sometimes, what the blessed things are. However, reading Calva's letter makes it clear that she thinks (as does Arnold) there are many who don't want to do so. and then says:- Even in France one is able to stay well within the rules/guidelines and still operate an effective, flexible and legal business, which is what I aim to do. I agree wholeheartedly. Where my emphasis is perhaps different, is that I try to run my meals as if they were a dinner party. I know this is slightly different from the "french" approach, but that seems to me to be entirely consistent with that fascinating diversity that makes up the CdH business. Finally she gives an example:- An instance last night was that most of our guests wanted to try some of our home grown duck, however one only eats chicken and fish, the whole menu was served except I gave her a steamed chicken breast with the cherry and Kirsch sauce I had made for the duck breasts and veg served as for the others.  Personally I don't see this as falling outwith any rules, if I had served her duck it would have been wasted and I always have chicken breasts in so where was the problem, she didn't actually have a choice I told her what she was getting. I think that an ultra strict interpretation of the rules would probably say that you did stray over the edge, but I would probably have done the same thing and felt the same way about it. That's the great advantage (it seems to me) about living here. The rules may seem very strict, but as long as you're seen to be good news to the area, and are obviously not going out of your way to compete with local restaurateurs unfairly, then they'll be interpreted with generosity and intelligence. Try suggesting such an approach to most British civil servants, especially at local govt. level and they'll explode with quivering indignation Miki came back to say:- Menus : [snip]  therefore one cannot give a choice of menus pricewise nor in fact offer different starters, plat principals etc. Exactly. There has to be give and take or NO one would actually be a TDH. We all want our guests to return, or at least be made welcome and have a good stay, therefore we have to be very flexible. Again, I agree completely. And as you and I have both said the rules areto be kept to - flexibly!! (Hooray for French pragmatism!). Finally Arnold adds (as only Arnold  would) it just occurred to me that a TdH could run restaurant style quite legally by adopting a tactic [snip]... all you need to do is to rent them some accommodation. Therefore, in principle, you could notionally offer, say, your hayshed for 1€ to someone for the night if they wanted a meal. Ian's going to scream at me for saying that I'm sure  It does appear to be an entirely legal way to do it though (you'd still be limited to 15 diners and a single set price for your "menu" Well, it would be hard to say they are "staying with you" when the police come round at midnight looking for your "hayshed".  But more to the point, I think you'll find that this is a case where you won't be able to rely on the french applying the rules flexibly and generously. One thing the authorities hate and detest is some smart@r$e , whether french or foreign trying to outsmart the system. So the sort of thing you could expect would be for the fisc to descend on you asking to see your receipts for every piece of food you've bought for the last 5 years (oh yes, at one time you did have to keep them), and going through your books with a fine tooth comb. They're perfectly entitled to do so at ANY time, if they "have reason to believe" that you're cheating. And "reason to believe" could be the local restaurant phoning in a not very anonymous denunciation. And then you might get a cousin of the local hotelier (unknown to you), claiming to have got food poisoning after a meal, and denouncing you to the Service des Consommateurs, who would then carry out a full scale sanitary inspection.  And while you're still reeling from that, the Mayor might well find that one of your application for a Declaration de Travaux wasn't "conforme" so you have to take down the extension. So Arnold, if YOU want to go down that path, fine. But I don't think it's very wise advice for others who might be starting out in an area where CdH are not very well liked.

Arnold, Whatever are we going to do with you. You show amazing stubborness in believing what you want to believe. you said:- Definitely not Ian. French "menus" do offer a choice. Restaurant menus certainly. But as I've tried to explain, we are supposed NOT to be competing with restaurants. To do TdH it's ONE menu, (meaning one meal) ONE table, and ONE service. about it, it's the only way it makes sense as, even in France, a family dining together does not always have a single choice per course. Sigh.... I've never seen a choice except perhaps in the matter of cheeses, at an ordinary dinner in a private home. But I've only been living here 16 years and eating with the French in their homes for 20. Perhaps next year I'll be invited to a home where the lady of the house dishes a chicken casserole and for those who prefer no meat, some fish, with an option for vegetarians. You ask When was the last time that you actually looked in detail about the specific phrase we are debating? The word "menu" has a very different meaning in French from English and is one that is easily confused. Arnold for HEAVEN'S sake, I worked 20 years as a chef specialising in French Haute cuisine. I know what menu means in French. Both in a restaurant and more generally. When I chat to our neighbour Linette, and I say I'm cooking for friends she asks me "qu'est qu'il y a au menu?" There's absolutely NO implication of multiple dishes. Which isn't to say that when serving an entrée, for example, there couldn't be paté, jambon cru and salad, and that one person might take paté, another the salad and the third all three. As for "the last time". It was about three weeks ago. After reading all the brouhaha about multiple menus and a choice of dishes in a single menu, I asked them. I ALSO asked Gites De France, they both agreed ONE menu means ONE meal. Certainly that's what all our local Fermes Auberge do at their Table d'Hotes.  So, as I said, YOU ask yours.  Print out what I typed out, explaining what its from, and show them your suggested multiple choice menu with vegetarian options and so forth and ask them. You obviously WON'T accept that I really do know what I'm talking about, so go and find out for yourself.

Hi Margaret (oops sorry) you said:- And doesn't "noble rot" play an important role somewhere?  What you describe above fully explains the price, which we don't mind paying one bit as we generally only indulge in a dessert wine on high days and holidays. Yes indeed. Without going into HUGE details, there are only a limited number of ways in which you can end up with a sweet wine - especially one which is stable. Most of these involve manipulating the grapes (using the word VERY loosely) between the time they get normally ripe and the time you press them. These are:- Drying (either on the vine - passerillage or off - vin paillé) Allowing them to freeze on the vine,  and pressing frozen - germanic technique (Eiswein) now used in Canada - Icewine. Allowing the grapes to get Noble rot - Pourriture Noble, Botrytis Cinerea - while still on the vine. When all goes well, the rot thrives on the grapes in the misty evenings, and then dries out in the hot autumn sun, rather than becoming boring old "grey mould" which destroys many a crop. I was thinking of, and referring to this last whenI said that the right climatic conditions were required, although that's true of most of these. Passerillage cannot work in steady cold drizzle! I remember once arriving (Patricia was busy, being interviewed on the phone by "Decanter") at Richard Doughty's place, just at the moment the pickers were unloading one "trie" of the vineyards. (A trie - french for  "sort" means they go through the vineyard with scissors, snipping off the grapes which are dried just right by the noble rot, and leaving the rest to get attacked). They looked REVOLTING. A sort of purply grey colour, with a cloud of spores hanging over them! Yeuch. The wine they made was sublime.

Hi, Arnold said:- It would appear that we have been arguing over nothing. "1 seul menu par service" means in english terms "1 fixed price menu per sitting". It DOES allow a choice for each course; what it doesn't allow is a different price. Would that were true. But no. One menu, means one menu, it doesn't mean a choice of dishes at one fixed price. Go and ask at your local service des consommateurs office. Arnold with deep respect to you, Jacquie is half French, has a degree in French and taught it 20+ years I'm now virtually bilingual, having lived here 16+ years. I HAVE been involved in this for 10 years and oddly enough I was concerned about the rules as they applied to me. So whatever you may want us to believe, it just ain't so. Coco says:- I can understand that it isn't "allowed" to offer a choice of menus, separate tables etc, or a TDH would have an nfair advantage over hotels, Absolutely right! where we have only 2 or 3 rooms and all are booked by the same party, a choice of starters, main meal and desserts are offered at breakfast, for the eveing meal - on the proviso that all have to settle on the same meal, and yet still allowing a degree of choice. Indeed, I can see no possible problem in doing that. I do a very similar thing. I don't know if you noticed on my "form letter", but I ask my clients to tell me if there's anything they can't eat, and then I plan the meal on that basis.  What matters is that we all sit down to the same thing. However equally obviously, if you'd planned a quiche as a starter, and then it turns out you've got a coeliac who's come, then no one is going to object if you cut off a chunk of paté for them, or a slice of ham. them.  I now have the peace of mind of knowing that they will all LIKE what I serve up and that the diabetic won't have a problem with any of it. Brilliant solution! As Winterbunny says, if we are in our own home surely we should have the flexibility to serve the dinner as we please.  Well, yes, of course we can as long as we don't charge for our meals. If we do, then we are either running Table d'Hote or a restaurant - as far as the French administration is concerned. And there are rules (discussed ad nauseam) that govern what happens. It may be true that an "englishman's home is his castle" in the UK (it isn't and never has been, of course) but that concept doesn't even exist in France. So no, you can't do whatever you like in your own home in France. After all, if I were having friends to dinner I would check if they liked what I intended to serve.  Absolutely right, and that's exactly what we do too. Finally, turning to John's point (and completely changing the subject, but why not?) For many years our style at home was not to serve meals 'already plated' but to put dishes in the middle for the family to choose from. Even more so when we had family guests (not necessarily a dinner party). A couple of years ago I was staying with a (very friendly and accomodating) Hote and I aksed him why he 'plated'. He said it was to control presentation. I now realise that balancing portion control may be part of it as well (commercial issues). We usually put dishes in the middle of the table, as being more "family". However, we have found that it can be quite hard to get people to serve themselves and eachother, so often have to chivvy them slightly ;-)) That said, Jacquie usually serves people the meat - at table - asking them how much they would like, as one would at home, and there are occasions (magrets de canard) when that's probably saved some red faces! However in recent years we've taken to doing some of Gordon Ramsey's dishes, and these (and some others too) most definitely do require plating in advance. But this is purely for presentational reasons, and has little to do with portion control. Equally, for the fourth course, we serve three very good (and rather expensive) local cheeses, and I always serve that - not for portion control, but to keep the cheeses usable to the last bit. I encourage them to come back for seconds and thirds, but rarely have takers! In the 10 years we've done TdH, I don't think we've ever had a serious problem over portions. It's true that we cater pretty generously, but I can't think of any occasion when our guests have taken too much. No!! I tell a lie!! We grow purple sprouting brocolli, and we served the last of it the day before yesterday. One of our guests did slightly over estimate the amount he gave his wife and himself, but Jacquie & I still had enough. We just couldn't offer any for seconds, so they just had to make do with the lamb and spuds. I find that over catering about 10% is a wise precaution, in that we usually have some left overs, while our guests can eat to their fill.

Hi MJW (Mike, isn't it?) You said:- Will certainly look out for Cuvee Madame.  Thanks again. Steady on!!! Cuvée Madame - is one heck of a price (500FF a half litre, when last I looked) Cheaper than Yquem, but only just! I have tasted it, against his "ordinary" cuvée (Ch Tirecul-la-Gravière) and feel that at around E25 or a bit more a 500 mls bottle, his normal cuvée is far better vfm, and in some respects a better wine, in that it's less "extreme". (I'm no particular fan of Robert Parker's taste). I think my favourite stickies from the area are mainly from Saussignac. Without going into deep technicalities, they have just created new rules which will forbid chaptalisation of sweet wines (a technique I consider to be an obscenity for sweet wines and which frequently produces unbalanced parodies, IMO), and allow them to produce fully sweet wines without special derogation. So Cuvée Richard from Ch Richard, Clos d'Yvigne, Ch Miaudoux, Ch La Maurigne are all in my cellar! From Monbazillac, my preference is for the Cuvée de l'Abbaye from the Domaine de l'Ancienne Cure (Roche), although there are several others, Petit Paris, and Clos des Verdots (Le Vin especially) for example. A word of warning. Making a top sweet wine is a desperately labour intensive business. It is also extremely risky, (you need exactly the right conditions in the autumn) and difficult, as the vinification is very tetchy. It also produces tiny yields. Champagne houses may produce abt 90Hl/Ha, in Bergerac, dry reds usually are made at from 25Hl/Ha for the very best and most expensive to around 60Hl/Ha. A really good sweet wine will be produced at well under 10Hl/Ha. So don't begrudge the prices you need to pay for good examples. I think you should expect to pay over E12 a half litre for something decent, and I'd not turn a hair at E15. Tony, you said. Ian,thanks for the other recommendations I will try to check a few out on my next visit,I've been drinking Bergerac wines ever since my first visit 19 years ago and I revisit regularly to stock up. You're welcome. Try especially to visit Luc de Conti as Ch Tour des Gendres (feel free to use my name). If he's not there, his sister Lucie, or wife Martine are usually on hand. D'you want my list of addresses etc? It's not exhaustive, but not bad.  

Hi Arnold & Buns, Arnold says "surely the rules are that we offer a family style meal and because my aunt offered three choices of everything.... (sigh)" Buns says "surely these are guidelines, not rules." I have been basing my replies and opinions on a document produced by the Ministere de l'Equipement, des Transports et Du Tourisme - "Direction du Tourisme". The document is fairly old, and some parts have been overtaken by other rules, though not those to do with defining Tables d'Hôtes. It is called (note the wording). "La réglementation dans le Secteur paracommerciale". (I shall assume your French is up to scratch on this, for the moment, but don't hesitate to ask if the meanings are  not clear") "Réglementation" means rules, not guidelines. In this document, on page 15 we find "Table d'Hôte" (Agriculteur ou Particulier) "Les tables d'hôtes, réservées aux touristes qui occupent un hébergement proposé par le propriétaire, permettent aux touristes qui utilisent la chambre d'hôte ou un camping à la ferme, de goûter également à la cuisine locale à la table familiale. "Le nombre de convives est limité à 15 personnes au maximum hébergées en Chambres d'hôte en plus de la famille de l'exploitant. Cette forme de restauration doit donc respecter 3 principes. - 1 seul menu par service - 1 seule table et prise des repas en commun - ne pas dépasser la capacité d'accueil Si un de ces principes n'était pas respecté, la table d'hôte deviendrait un restaurant." Then later on on page 42, (dealing with non people doing Table d'Hote who aren't farmers) we find. "Interdiction - Plusieurs menus par service - Plusieurs tables - Restauration sans hébergement - dépassement de la capacité d'accueil (15 convives maximum) Si les conditions n'étaient pas remplis, la table d'hôte serait un restaurant." Now (Note that what I've been saying about eating with the clients is NOT mentioned, so I apologise to those I've misled about it), the word "interdiction" is FAR stronger than "Déconseillé" It means "forbidden". So having more than one menu is forbidden, as is having service at different times and at several tables. These are not rules that are restricted to Gites de France members, they apply to anyone offering a meal for money (loosely speaking)  if they're NOT a recognised commercial catering establishment - restaurant, brasserie, bar etc. As I've said before, minor infractions on a one off basis, and for particular reasons probably won't involve problems. Although Buns doesn't like the French system of making rules, the equally French system of trying to apply them with intelligence greatly softens the rigid rule structure. So while I can't imagine that making an omelette once in a while for someone who doesn't eat meat or fish, is going to cause problems, on the other hand regularly offering a separate "Vegetarian Menu", or "Jewish Menu" or "Muslim Menu" WILL be regarded as going too far over the dividing line. We MUST work on the assumption that WE as foreigners don't have a built-in understanding of how far we can go in breaking the rules (most French do seem to, usually).  Equally, we have to work on the assumption that everything we do will be observed, commented upon, chewed over and reported. It certainly happens to us here. I don't know how many times almost total strangers have come up to us in Argentat, (11 kms away from us here) and said "Aren't you the English who run that CdH in Forges?" and when we say we are. "We understand that you cook wonderfully well, would there be any chance of booking a meal with you?" So it's wholly naive to assume that we can regularly do several things that are against TdH rules, and NOT have it known to the Authorities. And it is even more naive to assume that if a local restaurateur runs into difficulties, it won't occur to him to blame you for his problems. Can I say that WE have chosen to live in France, run a business which is subject to French laws, and seek to make money from our location in France. It seems to me to be a bit steep then to grumble about not liking the way the French run things.

Hi, Patricia's a lovely lady. She had a devil of a job when she first came out here, with her husband falling very ill. Yes she's a shrewd business woman but I don't see that is being in any way reprehensible, so is another Bergerac friend of mine, Olivia Donnan of Ch Masburel, and plenty of others, no doubt. As for her wines, they're in her mould, lovely too. There is no problem buying direct from her if she has any. I know that every time I've tried to get hold of her _magic_ Saussignac, she's been out of it, so I've just HAD to make do with that from Richard Doughty (Ch Richard), Gérard Cuisset (Ch Miaudoux) or one or two others making splendid wines in Saussignac and Razac de Saussignac. I've been making something of a speciality of wines from Bergerac for 20 years, and I don't find Clos d'Yvigne wines overpriced for the quality or the care that goes into them, far from it. A similarly carefully made wine from Bordeaux would cost about 30% more from the grower (if they were to sell direct). Cheap Bergerac wines are just that. Good ones such as are made by the many excellent growers there are well worth looking out for, while the best, from growers like Patricia, Luc de Conti, David Fourtout, Olivia Donnan and Christian Roche, are easily up to the standard of all but the 10 or so very best from Bordeaux. Just for the anecdote, the Monbazillac Cuvée Madame from Bruno Bilancini comfortably beat Ch Yquem at a Robert Parket blind tasting. You've hit on a subject dear to my heart. Our day-to-day red is either our local Coteaux de Glanes for a light red, or for something more characterful, I have the bag-in-the-box from Roche at €2.50 a litre, and his white is my daily white too. These top growers are incapable of making bad wine!

Hi Calva, I am afraid that I'm very firmly of the camp that one shouldn't try to break the law. Firstly because it's wrong, (which isn't THAT serious perhaps) but much more importantly, because it won't work. Just think about it. How will you let people know you are running a B&B, without the tax man finding out? Don't you think the local villagers will know? Do you hope that no one will be chatting about you in the local bar? What's more, you might be pleasantly surprised to find out how modest french income taxes are when you've got a moderate income. Just for your information, if you declare your B&B as a micro-bic (I think it's called) which is the usual status of a Chambre d'Hote then you only get taxed on 25% of your declared income. And if you've got dependant children, each counts as half a person for calculating tax levels. So (taking some random figures) If you have 3 children and are making €18k (a very good income from B&B alone) a year, then first of all only €4.5k will be considered to be taxable. Then the family calculation comes into play. With 1 adult and three dependant children under 18, you would have 1+3*.5 family members for tax purposes. So 4.5k/2.5 = €1800. That's the income level at which the tax man will be calculating your rate of income tax. Well, that's zero. So you'd pay no income tax. You would, however have to find csg, but again you may be able to get allowances to help. So, by all means try to run a B&B, but do it properly. Get registered with Gites de France or Clevacances, declare your income and _join the system_. Don't imagine that it's a good idea to try to live in the shadows. Firstly it's dishonest, why SHOULD others pay for the services you want to be able to continue to use? Secondly it is inefficient, you will NEVER get people coming if you can't advertise properly, and thirdly it cannot work for long, so sooner or later you'll get the "fisc" descending upon you like a ton of bricks, and they DON'T joke.