Roof guarantee

[MandyMoo]

We have used an English builder working in France to assist with our renovation. We have asked for receipts and invoices since he started last summer but have received very few with various excuses given. We have asked for a facture and guarantee for a roof which was paid for in June. The builder has said he will give us these but needs us to pay the VAT on top of our original payment or he won't be able to give us the guarantee. I want to know if he can do this - add on VAT months after we've paid, and refuse to give us the guarantee if we don't pay it. This is obviously going to apply to any other paperwork we ask for. We have made a lot of errors dealing with this bloke and could kick ourselves for choosing him to do the work in the first place. Any help gratefully received.

[dave21478]

He is not declaring VAT. Its pretty certain he wont be insured either.

You have no guarantee.

Dont pay him anything more.

[NormanH]

Tout constructeur (entrepreneur, promoteur immobilier, lotisseur,

maître d'œuvre, architecte, technicien, bureau d'étude,

ingénieur-conseil) impliqué dans la construction d'un ouvrage neuf ou

existant, ou tout prestataire lié au maître d'ouvrage par un contrat de

louage d'ouvrage, est soumis à un régime de responsabilité décennale.

Le professionnel engage sa responsabilité pendant 10 ans,

en cas de dommage, à l'égard du futur propriétaire (le maître

d'ouvrage), mais aussi à l'égard des acquéreurs successifs en cas de

revente de l'ouvrage.

Cette obligation concerne également les professionnels du bâtiment

étrangers, qui doivent pouvoir justifier que leur garantie couvre la

responsabilité décennale selon la loi française pour les contrats

exécutés en France.

https://www.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/vosdroits/F2034

Has he given you a devis and his Siret number?

[alittlebitfrench]

VAT in France ?

If you have paid him without him producing a facture I suspect you have paid him on the black.

I am guessing you don't much of a leg to stand on.

[MandyMoo]

We have been asking for factures since day 1 - I have all the emails we have sent continually asking for them. Does this make any difference?

[EuroTrash]

Unfortunately the time to sort all this out was before day 1, ie before you accepted his devis and signed the bon d'accord (you did have a devis and sign a bon d'accord didn't you).

Did you check the siren number on his devis (it does have a siren number on it doesn't it)? Does his devis show details of his decennale insurance, did you ask for a copy? By law the devis has to give a breakdown of TVA to be charged so does it state that he is zero rated, or does it give an amount HT and a TTC amount stating the rate of tax that applies?

Once you've accepted the devis and he's started work, let alone finished the job, it's a bit late to wonder whether he's insured and whether he charges TVA or not.

The law is designed to protect the client by making it obligatory for artisans to provide this information upfront so the client can check, but it can't protect you if you turn a blind eye.

Sorry but I agree with the other posters, it sounds like he's on the black. Which technically puts you in the wrong for giving him the job.

[MandyMoo]

Well, if we didn't feel stupid enough before, we feel like total idiots now!

Appreciate all the replies

[mint]

Don't feel too bad, MM, I'm sure I have done similar before[:)]

Experience is always costly.

[idun]

There is quite a lot you could do. You could report him to the URSSAF, the organisation to which social security charges are made. You could go to the gendarmes and porte plainte.

However, watch out, as you could be fined or worse, if you are considered to have been complicit, if in fact this builder is involved in illegal activities.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F10999

You are only allowed to pay up to a 1000€ in cash in France, over and above that and they are working au noir.

Sounds as if you have not got any guarantees at all.

[EuroTrash]

Not stupid and not idiots, you were just too trusting (especially of other Brits, perhaps?). The only people who never make mistakes are the people who never do anything, everybody else makes loads of mistakes, it's the best way of learning. The idiots are the ones who don't learn and keep making the same mistakes over and over, and I get the feeling you're not about to do that ;-)

Of course just because the paperwork isn't in order, don't mean the roof will leak. You may have a good job and saved yourself the TVA. I can't speak for other forum members but if it makes you feel better I don't mind admitting I have sometimes gone that route, when work needed doing and the budget wouldn't stretch to registered artisan prices. But you need to do it as a calculated risk not because you were tricked into it. So, fingers crossed.

[alittlebitfrench]

Personally if it was me, I would get someone out to check out the work to see if the roof has been done to a good standard. If it has then chances are you will not have any problems with it.

On the other hand, when/if you come to sell you are going to have problems. Quite big ones to.

In that respect I would give your roofer one last chance to provide you with all the paperwork that you need without paying further.

If he does not then follow Iduns advice and report him and claim that you did sign the devis but was never given a copy. That would explain why you do not have a paperwork.

I mean the chances are he does not have insurance but at least you will stop the ****** screwing somebody else.

Personally, I would take him on.

[EuroTrash]

The trouble with reporting him is that by law, it's firmly the client's responsibility to ensure that anyone they employ is properly registered. It's not hard to check. And if you use unregistered labour URSSAF can fine you, the client, many thousands of euros. They're short of money so if they see a chance they'll likely take it; why would you give them a chance?

Of course it's possible he is registered, probably as a handyman, but not insured for roofing, in which case it is definitely worth pursuing because insurance is the artisan's responsibility.

[alittlebitfrench]

ET, I am kinda torn with this.

I think it might be better to come clean and play dumb with the authorities. If the house/roof burns down the insurance company could play up. Selling the house will be a headache/maybe impossible without the guarantee.

If there had been an accident during the work the OP would be in serious trouble.

I would check out the builder to see if he is registered and go from there.

[EuroTrash]

One other little point - the OP says "to assist with our renovation". Unless the man was responsible for the roof from start to finish, ie speccing and providing the materials and doing all the work himself, there is no way he can insure the end job. Again, the materials to be used would be itemised on the devis. His insurance (even if it exists) won't cover using materials supplied by the client, or doing part of the work with the client doing the rest.

[mint]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]  Selling the house will be a headache/maybe impossible without the guarantee.[/quote]

I don't agree that it would be impossible to sell the house.

The house we sold was completely renovated by the previous owner himself and so nothing was guaranteed.  When we sold it on, the notaire noted down that there was no guarantee and asked us whether we would agree to put anything right that was subsequently found to be a problem.

The work was good, the house itself was solid (the diagnostics man said it was très saine) and we gave our consent to taking on the liability of major defects and the sale went through just fine.

And before anyone tells me that it was risky for us to give such an agreement, I can tell you that OH was a chartered surveyor and architect back in the UK and he is still registered as such in France (though nobody asked to see his qualifications).

So selling is NOT a problem, AFAIK

[Chancer]

Forget about it.

Dave21478's advice is succinct and to the point.

 

dont even think about denouncing him as you will be considered to be the criminal exploiting a poor downtrodden hardworking guy, they wont have to search Under stones to find you to make you cough up any fines, even if you claim you were not knowingly employing someone on the black your actions betray that. There are also heavy fines for false denonciation, I dont have the link to hand but they are 100 times higher than the fine that could (but wont) be handed out to the malfaiteur présumé which tells you all you need to know about where the sympathies of the authoritys lie.

 

OTOH if he is a registered and insured tradesman and you want the written guarantee and the factures then you should hand over the 20% TVA, I am assuming that you dont have a written devi for a lower amount, make sure you recieve the facture when paying the money.

 

If the person or company has done a good job then I recommend going back to line 1 of this posting.

[idun]

I don't disagree Chancer.

Often devis are HT anyway, so the TVA could easily be requested afterwards if not paid with the bill. Usual no, but if that was the difference between getting a proper bill or not, I would pay up.

Incidentally, has the OP checked up on this roofer by now? They should have done.

We moved to french France and were done over by the company that put our fire in. And our french neighbours, a french noble family were done by their builder when they had a home built. Happens, no matter the nationality.

And have we had work done au noir, not really, could never afford anything to be done really, so it was us and friends and then we would help them.

[vette]

I presume that if you sold up after 10 years, any insurances would be null and void anyway.

[MandyMoo]

Thank you for all the comments/advice. Lots to discuss!! It's been a steep learning curve and we've possibly been somewhat naive. Not any more though!! Genuinely appreciate you all taking the time to put 'pen to paper'