Barry Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 I would welcome advice please. I receive a small RAF pension on which UK tax is deducted at source. I dutifully declare this in France on Form 2047-K block VII (Revenus Exonérés Pris En Compte Pour Le Calcul Du Taux Effectif) and transcribe it onto Form 2042-K Part 8 Block TI. It seems that while this is not factored in the Avis D'Impot (i.e. I don't think I'm paying unearned income tax on the pension in both UK and France), I am pretty sure last year it was part of the calculation for Contributions Sociales. I'm sorry if I sound a little vague but I find reverse engineering the tax office calculations from my declaration hard going! Anyway, my question is: does a taxed UK pension count towards French Social Contributions? By the way, the pension is paid into my UK account. Be glad to hear from someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomad Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Barry this is no doubt going to be an area of interest to me as I intend , in the main, to survive off of my military pension. I understand that you can have it paid direct into your French account at no charge from the UK office and at the Gov't prefered exchange rate.I also understand from Paymaster that you will only be taxed once and that there is currently an agreement between all EU countries that that remains the case. However I am not residant in France until Later this year so have not yet tested anything ;).So I hope there is someone out there who has the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted May 18, 2007 Author Share Posted May 18, 2007 Hi NomadYes, all that you say is my understanding too & it was only personal preference to have mine paid into an UK account. It's this matter of social contribution that surprised me and I'm looking for confirmation from somebody that pensions (military or otherwise really) while taxed in the UK are still liable against French "contributions sociales". It occurs to me that maybe I've declared my pension in the wrong block. It also occurs to me maybe I shouldn't have declared it at all but too late now! Anyway, nice to hear from you & we'll await some kind person's further input.Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Barry, Having spent a considerable time and effort investigating the system whilst planning for my future in France I am firmly of the opinion (no guarantee that I'm right) that your pension is considered as your fiscal revenue, if its taxed in UK then it wont be taxed in France. However, your social contributions in France are still a requirement and are approx 8% of your fiscal revenue, therefore whilst you should pay no French income tax you will pay CMU on the pre-tax value of your pension. No doubt someone will put me right if, in fact, I am wrong, but thats my take on the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob T Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 I have my RAF pension paid into my French bank account, but it does not matter where it is paid. I declare it on the French tax return as income with tax paid in the UK. Last year I was asked for no more and I suspect this year will be the same. But this years tax return is for 2006 and I was covered by an E106 that year, so assume that no social contributions will be asked for. I suspect that as the pension is less than £6000 per year, there will never be any contributions expected. When I am 55 (a few years yet) and the pension goes up, that might be a different matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 Hello,UK military pensions are taxed in the UK and are not subject to French CSG/CRDS. However the pension is taken into account in assessing your global income and will therefore be taken into account in assessing contributions to CPAM if you are affiliated under purely residence criteria as opposed to E Forms.RegardsOwen[email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 ......... if its taxed in UK then it wont be taxed in France. However, your social contributions in France are still a requirement and are approx 8% of your fiscal revenue, therefore whilst you should pay no French income tax you will pay CMU on the pre-tax value of your pension.No NO NO!!!!!!! How many times does it have to be written on here that social contributions/charges are NOTHING to do with the CMU and the French Health care system?Have a look at http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/924927/ShowPost.aspxSorry to be blunt Steve, but what you are describing are the contributions that are to be made to the CMU French Health system and are based as you say on world wide fiscal revenue. But these are not what are known as social charges.Social charges come in various forms, CSG, CRDS etc but are only paid in two basic ways for people who do not work 1) as part of ones incomes tax (CRDS 0.5%) if one does not have an E 106 or 121 in force or 2) separately on what the French classify as unearned income which is rental income and interest received on capital invested. Social charges are billed separatey to Income Tax link made live by RH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 mea culpa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 SteveWrite out a thousand times "I understand about CMU and the SECU, but I must not upset Ron by missing out the word security that comes between social and contributions....."[;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 I was thinking a two sided essay on why the Brits find it a problem to declare interest to pay social charges.........[Www]Joking aside, it is SO important to differentiate between these two potential payments. Social Security payments are a UK thing, tied up withand dealt with by paying NI. The French Health system contributions and French social contribitions are not the same thing and a lot of people including me, are not aware of them until they move to France. As the UK encourages savings and personal finace plans like PEPs and ISAs and a lot of Brits are income poor and asset rich, it can be quite a culture shock to find ouit that the French "tax" savings twice and the separate bill for social charges on the back of significant interest can be quite a shock to a carefully worked out budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 [quote user="Sunday Driver"]SteveWrite out a thousand times "I understand about CMU and the SECU, but I must not upset Ron by missing out the word security that comes between social and contributions....."[;-)] [/quote]I understand about CMU and the SECU, but I must not upset Ron bymissing out the word security that comes between social andcontributionsI understand about CMU and the SECU, but I must not upset Ron bymissing out the word security that comes between social andcontributionsI understand about CMU and the SECU, but I must not upset Ron bymissing out the word security that comes between social andcontributionsI understand about CMU and the SECU, but I must not upset Ron bymissing out the word security that comes between social andcontributionsI understand about CMU and the SECU, but I must not upset Ron bymissing out the word security that comes between social andcontributionsI understand about CMU and the SECU, but I must not upset Ron bymissing out the word security that comes between social andcontributionsI understand about CMU and the SECU, but I must not upset Ron bymissing out the word security that comes between social andcontributionsetc etc [:P] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 You cut and paste them, I watched you doing it through your spyware[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 sussed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted May 22, 2007 Author Share Posted May 22, 2007 I just want to say a big thank you for everyone who has contributed here. I'm now a little wiser!Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chezstevens Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Hi folks,Here is one reference military pensions. I am currently signed up to AFPS 2005 .... this allows, on leaving before age 55, to receive EDP (Early Departure Payment) non-index linked to age 55. After 55 it is index linked to 65 then full pension for years served. I understand under the dual-taxation agreement I pay in the UK. I also understand 8% contribution for health.However, under APFS 2005, if you leave early you get 2 lump sums - one on leaving and the second at 65. How are these lump sums treated by the french taxman? Especially interested in lump sum at 65 - assume I would be resident in France from age of 51. Both lump sums will be approx £100k each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Chez stevensThis should question be addressed by E mail to the French tax office at [email protected]I suspect that these ( tax free?) lump sums will be treated as taxable in France as very little that is ex gracia or tax free in the UK is treated the same in France, if these lump sums are taxed in the UK they would not be taxed again in France but your medical contributions may well escalate considerably. I know for certain that pension lump sums should be taken and banked in the UK before leaving for France as they are taxable in France if you are tax resident at the time of receipt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chezstevens Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Ron,VMT - so looks like a big hit on the second. Will touch base with the link - very useful. Both lump sums are taxfree (at present).Vern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob T Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Vern, I would suspect that the lump sum would come under the UK taxsystem along with the RAF pension, it is after all, part of the APFSpension system. I thought that the whole of the befefits from APFS wereclassed as "military pension", if so, the fact that the UK choose notto tax it, makes no difference, it should not come under the French taxsystem.I may be wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chezstevens Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Looks like a line to the French Impot before making the decision to leave early ..... leaving at 55 does not give the same issues. Hoo hum ... off to the sand for another month tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 The rules for military pensions may well be different, but for ordinary ones, lump sums are taxable if you make the move to France before they've been paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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