Revenue tax as a side issue to the current healthcare debate

[Benjamin]

Option 4.

Revert to being owners of a holiday home, ie no longer

resident in France. This however only allows you 183 days per year in

France. Buy a caravan, spend the balance of the year touring Europe, ie

(say) 1 month each in Belgium, Holland, Germany, Italy etc.

You are

a tourist in each of those countries and non resident in any. Get

travel insurance to cover medical problems whilst on holiday.

The

downside is ( I suppose) that you need an address which is suposedly

your permanent address, at least from the travel insurance point of

view. Would it work - comments invited.

---

Steve

Sharjah + 50 (in France)

Sure it works. We did this for several years in the 90's.

We continued to pay UK tax as we owned property which we rented out. I even worked for several years in France on short term summer contracts for a friend who owned a campsite.

We only ever had two medical "emergencies" and these were covered by travel insurance but I think the terms applied to such policies have been tightened considerably since then. Likewise we used an E111 for "normal" doctors visits and shouldered the non-reimbursable bits ourselves.

Were we completely legal for all that time in all the countries that we visited? I don't know but we were a lot younger and either didn't consider all the pros and cons or else maybe we just didn't care.[:D]

I'm still considering whether to see if I qualify as a French pensioner to see if, after Sarko's treatment of we immigrants, I can benefit from any handouts that might be going. [6]

[cooperlola]

Yes, you might well, Benjamin, if you have even a very limited French pension history:

http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/0711123_circ_dss_cmu_ue.pdf

Under 3B, see this para'

soit de se prévaloir d’une pension vieillesse française dans l’hypothèse où ils auraient

travaillé dans notre pays et auraient atteint l’âge de 60 ans. Dans ce contexte, leur pension

retraite même minime leur donne droit à la couverture maladie française

[groslard]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Yes, you might well, Benjamin, if you have even a very limited French pension history:

[/quote]

You would get Health cover, but be liable for 8% cotisations on your income, including that from abroad.

Plus you will never get an E 121

If you want free Health Cover in France be a Brit in a UK Old Age Pension.

Everybody else pays up[:D]

[mint]

Here we go again, FREE health cover.........What about the top-up?

[groslard]

[quote user="sweet 17"]Here we go again, FREE health cover.........What about the top-up?[/quote]

That doesn't go to the Sécu..

It's a private insurance you pay if you want to ( but don't have to) to cover the part everybody has to pay one way or another...

So French pensioners pay 8% of their pensions plus the top up

British pensioners on an E121 don't pay the 8%, they only pay the top up, which is cheap because a lot of young French people who don't take much out of the system are also paying into it.

That's why it is called a 'Mutuelle'..a Co-operative if you like..

[Bugsy]

[quote user="groslard"]

If you want free Health Cover in France be a Brit in a UK Old Age Pension.
Everybody else pays up[:D]
[/quote]

I'm beginning to wonder if you are actually of this planet groslard.  What do you think that current holder of 121's have been doing for the last 40 odd years.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Is this actually starting to sink in ?

 

 

[groslard]

[quote user="Bugbear"]

[quote user="groslard"]

If you want free Health Cover in France be a Brit in a UK Old Age Pension.

Everybody else pays up[:D]

[/quote]

I'm beginning to wonder if you are actually of this planet groslard.  What do you think that current holder of 121's have been doing for the last 40 odd years.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Paying into the UK system to ensure provision of healthcare.

Is this actually starting to sink in ?

 

 

[/quote]

so they weren't paying in in France?[:)]

What have  past payments got to do with the present?  It's not a savings scheme

When you leave Britain you are no longer resident, and you choose to leave the NHS.

If you go to the USA do you think your past contributions in the UK will pay for your Health care?

[Bugsy]

[quote user="groslard"]

so they weren't paying in in France?[:)]
What have  past payments got to do with the present?  It's not a savings scheme

[/quote]

We'll try a little quiz then and I'll keep the question really simple for you.

Ready ?

Question 1.

What does France receive from the UK in regard to E121 holders who currently live in France ?

Answer.

[Will]

For once groslard is dead right.

To be eligible for care under the national health service, you need to be British resident. If you choose to move to another country you give up those rights - just as you give up living in crime and drunkenness, under an overly-PC nanny-state government, having to wait ages for medical treatment and then risking infection, being surrounded by intimidating immigrants, and all the other things that people say they come to France to avoid (not my personal views by the way).

As a concession Britain gives qualifying people an E106 form to enable them to sort out their alternative arrangements. Those from other EU states with private insurance-based health systems find that they can normally transfer that cover to another country, but that doesn't apply to those in state systems.And the European system gives portability of health care to those of state retirement age or otherwise unable to work - those capable of working are, and always have been, outside this other concession.

I could repeat this eight more times, but I know it will not be any more acceptable to those who are affected.

Those who have lost the opportunity to pay into the French health system have a right to feel aggrieved, but paying into the UK system has no relevance to provision of permanent or long-term healh care outside Britain.

[groslard]

[quote user="Bugbear"]

[quote user="groslard"]

so they weren't paying in in France?[:)]

What have  past payments got to do with the present?  It's not a savings scheme

[/quote]

We'll try a little quiz then and I'll keep the question really simple for you.

Ready ?

Question 1.

What does France receive from the UK in regard to E121 holders who currently live in France ?

Answer.

[/quote]

 A fixed payment towards medical expenses for the holder, which is paid for out of the budget for the NHS intended for UK residents

When you leave Britain you are no longer resident, and you choose to leave the NHS.

If you go to the USA do you think your past contributions in the UK will pay for your Health care?

I answered yours..how about answering mine?

[Russethouse]

so they weren't paying in in France?
What have  past payments got to do with the present?  It's not a savings scheme
When you leave Britain you are no longer resident, and you choose to leave the NHS.
If you go to the USA do you think your past contributions in the UK will pay for your Health care?

On the topic of E121' s: There is a reciprocal arrangement with France(as well you know as you say you are campaigning against it) there is not AFAIK with the USA. It really isn't rocket science.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="groslard"]

If you go to the USA do you think your past contributions in the UK will pay for your Health care?
I answered yours..how about answering mine?
[/quote]

Thats a trick question and you know it. Of course they wouldn't,  at least not until JWB takes over the European Union.

But why would anyone right in the head even contemplate moving to America.

Land of the Free,      LOL

.

[Sunday Driver]

I think Bugbear's point was that having paid NI contributions all of time whilst resident in the UK, these entitle you to a state pension which also comes with an E121 which gets you access to the French system with your state insurance costs paid for by the UK.

If you go to the USA, then your past contributions won't pay for your healthcare for the simple reason that the E121 is only relevent within the EU - the area that we are talking about here....

 

[Scooby]

[quote user="Bugbear"]

But why would anyone right in the head even contemplate moving to America.

Land of the Free,      LOL

[/quote]

I have the same thoughts about people moving to France - why would anyone want to?

Liberté égalité fraternité  LOL

[Tony F Dordogne]

Sorry groslard, this is about Europe - different rules apply here, nothing to do with the USA because it's the European Union.  I'm getting more and more convinced he/she only comes in here to wind people up.

If you're so confident about your campaign against the E121 rules groslard, publish your details so people who agree with you can join in and campaign with you.

[Boiling a frog]

Think Groslard would have a hard job on his hands convincing all of the members of the EU that an E121 was no longer available.All EU citizens are entitled to an E121 if moving to another EU country and of pensionable age.

[Russethouse]

Couldn't find anything about a movement against the E121 via google, but my computer skills are not that great.......

[groslard]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

I think Bugbear's point was that having paid NI contributions all of time whilst resident in the UK, these entitle you to a state pension which also comes with an E121 which gets you access to the French system with your state insurance costs paid for by the UK.

[/quote]

Exactly! your costs are paid for by the UK, without you paying any Social Security contributions either in the UK or in France, despite the fact that entitlement to NHS cover is normally by residence, and has nothing to do with how many years you have paid.

In France retired people continue to pay around 8% of their pension in contributions, because here Health cover is dependent on continuing to contribute.

As for the 'top-up' retired Brits get it at the low rate available here thanks to the Subscriptions paid to the Mutuelle by young, healthy French people who don't take out as much as they put in.

So in both cases UK pensioners on an E121 are being subsidised threefold: once by people paying NI contribitions in the UK, once by the French who have paid much larger charges during their working lives to have the present service, and once by younger French people who are subsidising their Mutuelle.

Please think about that when complaining that the French are being unfair.

[groslard]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"].All EU citizens are entitled to an E121 if moving to another EU country and of pensionable age.[/quote]

But other EU citizens continue to pay Social Security payments (National Insurance). UK pensioners don't

My campaign is that UK pensioners in France be treated exactly the same as French pensioners.

[Sunday Driver]

Your objection to UK pensioners on an E121 being subsidised three ways is difficult to take seriously.

All pensioners are subsidised by those currently paying taxes and contributions, regardless of whether they hold an E121. It's the same for anyone who receives a state benefit entitlement. Perhaps you also intend to lobby against subsidising the unemployed, those with invalidities, or those on low incomes?  Whilst we're on the subject, let's abolish the pensioner's subsidised winter fuel allowance and let them freeze....

Charges paid by the French (or anyone else) during their working lives are used to fund the heath service available at the time, not to provide cover for when they retire. Unlike the DWP contributions for E121 holders, their 8% of pension does not go anywhere near covering their potential healthcare costs, so they are also being effectively subsidised by the working population. 

As far as younger French people subsidising their mutualle - don't we all benefit from them, retired French included?  It's exactly the same as young healthy UK people whose taxes fund the UK NHS even though they might never had call to use it.  That's the whole purpose of such mutually based funding systems.

 

 

[Bugsy]

This thread is really going nowhere fast. You can take a horse to water etc.

As far as I'm concerned and following the advice of my doctor, I'm going to avoid all contact with 'large' amounts of  'fat'.

It would make sense, in my opinion, if everyone adopted the same attitude.

Now, where's my porridge............................[:)]

[Panda]

[quote user="Scooby"][quote user="Bugbear"]

But why would anyone right in the head even contemplate moving to America.

Land of the Free,      LOL

[/quote]

I have the same thoughts about people moving to France - why would anyone want to?

Liberté égalité fraternité  LOL
[/quote]

But Scooby no one in there right mind would buy a house in the US (or post on a Living US Forum for that matter), if they felt so negativly about it would they? Come on what is your story, you have only ever posted sweeping statements of an anti-France nature but have said you have had a house for years here, that is really odd to me.  In what way does this forum interest you, I am truly interested in why someone would seemingly waste their time in this way. 

 

[groslard]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

"All pensioners are subsidised by those currently paying taxes and contributions, regardless of whether they hold an E121"

But those who stay in the UK are only a cost to the NHS if they are ill; those who have taken the personal decision to come to France, and benefit from what is arguably a better service, are expecting the UK to cough up over 3000 euros a year in subsiding the costs of their decision.

"Charges paid by the French (or anyone else) during their working lives are used to fund the heath service available at the time, not to provide cover for when they retire."

Exactly my point about contributions paid previously in the UK. They were for that time

"Unlike the DWP contributions for E121 holders, their 8% of pension does not go anywhere near covering their potential healthcare costs, so they are also being effectively subsidised by the working population. "

It is always the case that contributions might not cover potential healthcare costs, but the difference is that  a French pensioner pays a contribution, and a UK one doesn't

"As far as younger French people subsidising their mutualle - don't we all benefit from them, retired French included?"

The difference is that retired French paid into their Mutuelle when they were young, and so have earned the right to benefit now . UK pensioners didn't pay.

"That's the whole purpose of such mutually based funding systems."

The purpose is that you pay into a scheme when you can, and are helped when you need it. Not that you help yourself after all the hard part has been done by other people

 

 

[/quote]

[Russethouse]

Can someone clear this up for me please ?

Is it true that the DWP give France a set allowance per head for all those UK residents who possess an E form and who live in France ?

Groslard, What you seem to be railing against is a reciprocal agreement - surely that means that both French and British agencies worked out a fair agreement on both sides ? If the French authorities think the arrangement is fair why don't you ?

[Patf]

Gay - the DWP give the french health service a fixed amount for those people living in France with an E121. As Groslard says it works out at about 3000€ per person. I rang the Newcastle office once to ask this and this is what I was told, and have read it elsewhere too. I don't know how it works for the other E forms.