Revenue tax as a side issue to the current healthcare debate

[woolybanana]

[quote user="Scooby"]But the trend of the thread was that really, English living in France are not immigrants at all but the somehow, nicer 'ex-pats'.
[/quote]

Expats are nicer: They have proper pensions, money in the bank, their own home, do not work or if they decide to do so, have nice clean employment.

Immigrants on the other hand have squalls of brats, drive white vans, fiddle their taxes...........[6]

Does it matter? Actually, chaps, by the sound of it, yes, to some.[:@]

[Russethouse]

(including the East Europeans that everyone on here seems to be so disparaging about). 

Where ? Or is this another generalization ?

as former UK residents you are, in fact, privileged by having the benefit of the E106

If you had been following the current debate you would know why many with an E106 do not find it much of a privilege at present.

You have to be financially independent which means being able to provide your own health cover.

Yes, have the goal posts changed for US citizens wanting to live in France ? I don't think so. Had that been a continuous condition then people would know just where they stood.

Most of you have enough assets - after all you own nice renovated houses

More assumptions

which is more than the second generation North African communities living in the Parisienne suburbs have....

Red Herring alert !

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Scooby"]Sorry Bugbear - but I'm not a troll I am simply stating a fact.  If you have moved to France from the UK you are an immigrant, the same as the other immigrants (including the East Europeans that everyone on here seems to be so disparaging about).  Just because you don't like the term doesn't make it wrong.

As far as the point re the changes to health care are concerned, as former UK residents you are, in fact, privileged by having the benefit of the E106.  Sarkozy has simply applied the same rule to you as has always applied to US residents.  You have to be financially independent which means being able to provide your own health cover.  Being subject to changes like this is one of the hazards of becoming part of a minority immigrant community - you don't have the same clout that you have at home.  Most of you have enough assets - after all you own nice renovated houses - which is more than the second generation North African communities living in the Parisienne suburbs have....
[/quote]

Check out the troll website, it's very revealing............................

Where have I personally made any reference to immigrants or implied that I don't like the term Scooby ?

I don't have a E106.

I do have sufficient assets and a nice house thank you.

How did I get it?...........Not that it's any of your business but  I'll give you a small clue, no handouts, no inheritance, just a lifetime of hard work.

I'm not sure what second generation africans in Paris suburbs has got to do with any of this.

[Scooby]

[quote user="Russethouse"](including the East Europeans that everyone on here seems to be so disparaging about). 

Where ? Or is this another generalization ?[/quote]

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/672863/ShowPost.aspx

[quote user="Russethouse"]as former UK residents you are, in fact, privileged by having the benefit of the E106

If you had been following the current debate you would know why many with an E106 do not find it much of a privilege at present.[/quote]

Because it only provides 2 - 2.5 out of 5 years security as opposed to....nil.  What if a former US resident developes cancer 6 months after their arrival in France??

[quote user="Russethouse"]You have to be financially independent which means being able to provide your own health cover.

Yes, have the goal posts changed for US citizens wanting to live in France ? I don't think so. Had that been a continuous condition then people would know just where they stood. [/quote]

See comments above

[quote user="Russethouse"]Most of you have enough assets - after all you own nice renovated houses

More assumptions[/quote]

But reasonable ones

[quote user="Russethouse"]which is more than the second generation North African communities living in the Parisienne suburbs have....

Red Herring alert ! [/quote]

On Sarkozy's radar why should he give priority to 'affluent UK ex-pats'

[Scooby]

[quote user="Bugbear"]

I do have sufficient assets and a nice house thank you.

[/quote]

I'm pleased for you.  Really.

[quote user="Bugbear"]

How did I get it?...........Not that it's any of your business but

 I'll give you a small clue, its called a lifetime of hard work.

[/quote]

I'm familiar with that Bugbear - done 30 years to date and I expect to do a few more!

[quote user="Bugbear"]

I'm not sure what second generation africans in Paris suburbs has got to do with any of this.

[/quote]

Not looking from your perspective - or mine, but Sarkozy's...

[Russethouse]

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/672863/ShowPost.aspx

I read the thread and found it was more to do with those who are not registered - you may feel some people were disparaging, but others were positive.

Many people with an E106 think they would have been better off without one as they would now be registered and therefore 'in' CMU.

I'm not sure what you are referring to re the USA. From http://www.transitionsabroad.com/listings/living/livingabroadin/living_abroad_in_france_moving.shtml : 

You'll need to include three additional documents. If you are married and both you and your spouse are applying for long-stay visas, you must submit a copy of your marriage license. Proof of health insurance is also required.

So whether it was 6 days or 6 months, its a health issue, you were required to be insured in the first place, no one tried to stop your access to care halfway through treatment !

Many Brits who live in France renovated their own house or paid for the renovation, buying materials locally and/or using local workers, some of those houses had been empty for decades........

Sarkozy isn't being asked to give priority to 'affluent British expats' He is being asked to treat those already there fairly and within the rules of the EU.

 

[Scooby]

[quote user="Russethouse"]I'm not sure what you are referring to re the USA. From http://www.transitionsabroad.com/listings/living/livingabroadin/living_abroad_in_france_moving.shtml : 

You'll need to include three additional documents. If you are married and both you and your spouse are applying for long-stay visas, you must submit a copy of your marriage license. Proof of health insurance is also required.

So whether it was 6 days or 6 months, its a health issue, you were required to be insured in the first place, no one tried to stop your access to care halfway through treatment !

[/quote]

It is a requirement that the non EU immigrant has health insurance and it is a longer period of risk - that you may fall ill and so not be covered when your health insurance comes up for its annual renewal.[quote user="Russethouse"]

Many Brits who live in France renovated their own house or paid for the renovation, buying materials locally and/or using local workers, some of those houses had been empty for decades........

[/quote]

So what!

[quote user="Russethouse"]Sarkozy isn't being asked to give priority to 'affluent British expats' He is being asked to treat those already there fairly and within the rules of the EU.[/quote]Sarkozy is being asked to apply a limited budget in the most effective way.  A minority group of 'wealthy' British ex-pats (who could go 'home' to get free healthcare) are going to rank pretty low down on the agenda.

[Cjlaws]

I'm at a complete loss here. Scooby is having a go, or trolling at people he/she knows nothing about. For myself I've lived and worked in France for 10 years or so, am married into an Anglo-French family, never had an E106, pay my taxes, have a carte vitale and a mutuelle and have far more daily contact with my French friends than my English ones, mainly because almost all the English ones live in England. Maybe I'm an immigrant, maybe an-ex-pat, who cares? I'm an Englishman living in France.

From a French perspective, officially they call their nationals living in UK expatriés, see:

http://www.senat.fr/rap/r01-2002/r01-20025.html

[Scooby]

Sorry CJlaws - not intended to target you - I just feel annoyed by those who retire early to France having paid contributions into the UK system during their 'healthy years' and then expect the French systems to look after them in their 'sick years' for effectively nothing.  Then winge when things go pear shaped.  Whilst I can understand the stress of those now ill and without cover - that is one of the risks of moving abroad.  Sounds harsh - but that is the way of the world.  As I implied above - you can always return to the UK.

However - even married into french family you are still an immigrant!

[Scooby]

Going back to the OP, I don't think the argument would carry water.  You came to France with the intention of permanent residence so, imho, you're probably stuffed.

[Cjlaws]

[quote user="Scooby"]Sorry CJlaws - not intended to target you - I just feel annoyed by those who retire early to France having paid contributions into the UK system during their 'healthy years' and then expect the French systems to look after them in their 'sick years' for effectively nothing.  Then winge when things go pear shaped.  Whilst I can understand the stress of those now ill and without cover - that is one of the risks of moving abroad.  Sounds harsh - but that is the way of the world.  As I implied above - you can always return to the UK.

[/quote]

That's not the way you entered this thread. You popped up telling people that they, and Cooperlola in particular are immigrants, not ex-pats. That is simply not the case by definition and you seemed to be simply trying to cause offence. Why ask me, for instace, if the word "immigrant" causes offence? It doesnt.

The second generation North African communities living in the Paris suburbs have nothing whatsoever to do with this - they have no E106s, never have done and fall within the French health care umbrella.

It might be a good idea for those British citizens who find themselves in difficulty following the change in the French attitude to their health care to ascertain exactly what their French counterparts in the UK are entitled to. If the French get free care in the UK then the opposite should apply and the British government should ensure that.

[Cjlaws]

[quote user="Scooby"]Going back to the OP, I don't think the argument would carry water.  You came to France with the intention of permanent residence so, imho, you're probably stuffed.

[/quote]

It's simpler that that. If you have your home here in France you pay tax here.

[Russethouse]

It is a requirement that the non EU immigrant has health insurance and it is a longer period of risk - that you may fall ill and so not be covered when your health insurance comes up for its annual enewal.

The point here is those coming from the USA know what they are in for, there has been no change.

So what!

You raised the issue, if you don't know it's relevance, how should I ?[8-)]

But actually I daresay there is a point to be made about improving the housing stock and creating work, which would not have happened if the house had continued to stand empty.

Sarkozy is being asked to apply a limited budget in the most effective way.  A minority group of 'wealthy' British ex-pats (who could go 'home' to get free healthcare) are going to rank pretty low down on the agenda.

Sarkozy inhereited a situation, his government is obliged to adhere to EU rules and that is what he is being asked to do.

This idea that they 'could go home' to get free healthcare is non argument, firstly to be entitled to healthcare in the UK they would have to be resident, secondly for many it is far too late for them to return to become resident, they have invested so much in their move, their French homes and lives that they may be in a very poor position in the UK

This idea that these immigrants/expats are contributing very little doesn't really hold water either does it ? If they are 'wealthy' then 8% of their worldwide income should help contribute toward their health care considerably......... 

I know others have different ideas, but once those in France now on E106's are covered for healthcare then Sarkozy can do what he feels fit, AFAIC as long as he keeps to the same rule for all Europeans, fair enough.

[Buster_Gutte]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Buster Gutte and Deimos - as you're going to be illegal residents from Monday then why not go the whole hog and not pay your taxes? - might as well do it properly!

[/quote]

The 2nd postulate would then be:

How to 'not  to pay' revenue taxes; be reactive or proactive?

1) REACTIVE: Ignore requests to return the  'Declaration des Revenus' when they arrive this year,

or

2)PROACTIVE: Formally request Direction General des Impots that you are no longer resident in France and could he cancel your membership of his tax-club.

I know of someone who took option (1) when they left France. DGI 'saisired' their french bank account.

Alternatively, option 2 has consequenses (inter alia) that your domicile in france will return to being your 'maison secondaire' thereby subject to profit-taking taxes when you sell.

Is there a third, foolproof option? otherwise I'll probably take option (2) and 'return to France' later in life with PHI for six months, before I sell the house

rgds

Buster

[Tony F Dordogne]

The third, fool proof option seems to be that you do as the rest of us do and just pay your taxes and at the same time, accept that all taxation/social security payments may have an element of inequity about them.

Of course, if you take option 2 and you actually don't return to the UK as your use of 'return to France' implies, thereby making false declarations in France, you commit a number of offences but it wont detract from the fact you'll be an illegal immigrant and therefore subject to being deported and loosing a lot of your French assets.

[Deimos]

[quote user="Scooby"]

As far as the point re the changes to health care are concerned, as former UK residents you are, in fact, privileged by having the benefit of the E106.  Sarkozy has simply applied the same rule to you as has always applied to US residents.  You have to be financially independent which means being able to provide your own health cover.

[/quote]

I'm afraid the implemented changes are not being applied equally to US and EU citizens (not at all and I know that for a fact).  Having an E106 has meant that I could not join to CMU-B until 5-Jan-2008 by which time the rules had changed.  Those moving to France at the same time (or later) with no or shorter E106's managed to join and now stay in the CMU-B - so having a long E106 was far from a privilege but means I now have to leave France.

Under any definitions used anywhere I am financially independent, am a net contributor rather than a drain on French resources.  I have both income and assets that are way above the French stated requirements.

I would be quite happy to purchase private health insurance rather than subscribe to the CMU-B but this is not possible due to the requirements the French have put on the level of PHI cover.  The level of cover the FR gov are requiring is just not available.  I would if I could (not a question of money) but they have made it absolutely impossible so I have no choice in the matter but to be "illegal".

By the way, US people coming to France enter with PHI, get their CdS and then discard the PHI and join the CMU - something that takes a very short time.  Whereas a non-French EU citizen has to wait 5 years before being allowed to join the CMU-B !! - not quite the "same rules" !!

Ian

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Scooby"][quote user="Benjamin"]Sticks and stones Scooby, sticks and stones.

[/quote]

Not quite sure what you mean Benjamen??  If you are an Englishman living in France you are an immigrant.

[/quote]

Then you completely miss my point. I'm not in the least bit bothered what my social classification in France is, be it ex-pat, immigrant or you can call me Al.

If I have the same social classification as an immigrant from North Africa so what? It's just a title that other people want to append to a certain individual. It makes some people feel better if they can put others into little pidgeon holes.

[cooperlola]

Those with no health cover are illegal residents in two days anyway, there is no getting away from that.  I just assumed that Deimos and Buster's point was that if your residency rights were being removed then what are the taxation obligations?  In spite of continued requests, we have yet to be informed as to what the procedures for deporting all these people who don't comply will be.  They've only got the weekend to work out the logisitics!

Option 3 of course is for Deimos and Buster to pay each other via a cheque d'emploi for work done on one another's behalf.  Then they'll both pay cotis and can get healthcare that way.  But of course, I never said that, the previous sentence is a figment of your imagination and I will deny ever having typed it if you ask me.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Those with no health cover are illegal residents in two days anyway, there is no getting away from that.  I just assumed that Deimos and Buster's point was that if your residency rights were being removed then what are the taxation obligations?  In spite of continued requests, we have yet to be informed as to what the procedures for deporting all these people who don't comply will be.  They've only got the weekend to work out the logisitics!

Option 3 of course is for Deimos and Buster to pay each other via a cheque d'emploi for work done on one another's behalf.  Then they'll both pay cotis and can get healthcare that way.  But of course, I never said that, the previous sentence is a figment of your imagination and I will deny ever having typed it if you ask me.

[/quote]

Option 4.

Revert to being owners of a holiday home, ie no longer resident in France. This however only allows you 183 days per year in France. Buy a caravan, spend the balance of the year touring Europe, ie (say) 1 month each in Belgium, Holland, Germany, Italy etc.

You are a tourist in each of those countries and non resident in any. Get travel insurance to cover medical problems whilst on holiday.

The downside is ( I suppose) that you need an address which is suposedly your permanent address, at least from the travel insurance point of view. Would it work - comments invited.

[Buster_Gutte]

Powerdesal, two points perhaps:-

Your French home would now be your 'secondary residence' and therefore subject to profit-taking (gains) tax on resale?

To whom do you declare your income for tax purposes?

Buster

 

[Buster_Gutte]

Thanks to Deimos, Cooperlola, John F and Powerdesal for contributions. However, notwithstanding Cooperlola and John F's assertion that I may become an illegal immigrant, I think the nature of one's residency here has more than one 'level': By comparison with UK residency rules for taxation, one can be normally resident, not-normally resident, resident or not resident. The 4 states of residency are mutually exclusive, but do not necessarily determine where one is 'domiciled', another synonym for residency. In addition, Directive 2004/38 refers to a right to 'stay' in France (When staying for more than 3 months, you may (but are not obliged) to register at the local Préfecture de Police and obtain a registration certificate ("un certificat d'enregistrement" which the French authorities call "un titre de séjour"). You are no longer required to obtain a residence permit ("une carte de séjour")). Therefore, is the nature of 'staying' a further state of residency?

From personal experience, when I eventually got the authorities here to start processing my formulaire FD5 they agreed, on the basis that I was now to be 'un resident en manière permanent', which seems to me to indicate a degree of residency, (superior to the 'non regular' residency) which, after 5 years, gives potential access to the HealthCare system (discussed at length on the other forum board)

As I do not have a good understanding of the French bureaucratic rules and definitions, I don't know if all this is of any relevance to one's tax status but I would like to make a case for being non-resident, but not an illegal immigrant.
Regards
Buster

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Buster_Gutte"]

Powerdesal, two points perhaps:-

Your French home would now be your 'secondary residence' and therefore subject to profit-taking (gains) tax on resale?

To whom do you declare your income for tax purposes?

Buster

 

[/quote]

Capital gain on sale would only matter if / when you sell. If you intend to retire to said property (after receipt of E121) then no probs.

The "option 4" was intended as a temporary measure until such time as an E121 was available.

Income declaration would obviously have to be to the primary residence country, for most people on this forum that would be UK. You do not, as far as I know, have to own property in UK to have an address there, niether do you physically have to be there. You are, as a UK retired resident, entitled to be on holiday anywhere in the World at any time ( correct me if that is wrong) and as such, as long as you are a fully paid up member of the UK population you qualify for an EHIC during your travels on holiday.

An accountant should be able to minimise the tax requirement legally. ( Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion isn't )

[cooperlola]

Buster Gutte, if you get a sensible answer, do let us know. 

It is now illegal to reside here without comprehensive health cover. From today, many people whose E106s have run out and who have not got either PHI which conforms to the specifications laid out by the French Government, or cover via the CMU under the "accident of life" provisions (and we only know of two successful applicants on this basis - both under the authority of the same CPAM) are breaking the law.  This has nothing to do with whether they pay their taxes or not - this is a completely seperate matter.

It is also not comparable with the situation as it was before people were legally bound to join CMU, when private health cover was the norm for early retired Europeans living here.  In those days, one was welcome to stay, if one either paid for all one's treatment, or took out a "minimal" cover policy for major accidents and emergencies only.  Then, you could have legally stayed without the cover and paid your taxes.  That is not true under the new regulations.  Unless you have cover which is at least the equivalent of that provided by the state, you are breaking the law in this regard, whether you conform to taxation requirements or not.  There must be a huge temptation to say, "Right, I'm illegal, let's go the whole hog then," but all that means, as far as I can see, is that you would be breaking two laws, not just one.

[Will]

[quote user="Buster_Gutte"]

By comparison with UK residency rules for taxation, one can be normally resident, not-normally resident, resident or not resident. The 4 states of residency are mutually exclusive, but do not necessarily determine where one is 'domiciled', another synonym for residency.

[/quote]

France does not have the same definitions of residence as Britain for tax purposes, you are either 'resident' or 'non-resident'. Normal or not normal residence does not come into it. Moreover, domicile, in taxation terms, is a totally different concept from residence. It is certainly not a synonym. It is not difficult to meet residence qualifications for more than one country - although, in grossly simplified terms, where you are taxed is governed by any double taxation agreement that exists. You can only be domiciled in one country however.

Where the waters become totally muddied is that in France you can be resident for tax purposes by virtue of several points - such as having your main home in France, your family or dependants being in France, or your main centre of economic activity (as the accountants put it) in France. There are other points too, such as spending more than half the year in France (the French equivalent to the much-quoted British '183 day rule'). But for health and social security purposes the residence requirements are totally different, and the European five-year rule merely adds to the confusion that already existed.

So it appears that you can indeed be tax resident, and a taxpayer, but still an 'illegal immigrant' as far as Brussels and the French health service are concerned.

[Will]

[quote user="powerdesal"]

You do not, as far as I know, have to own property in UK to have an address there, niether do you physically have to be there. You are, as a UK retired resident, entitled to be on holiday anywhere in the World at any time ( correct me if that is wrong) and as such, as long as you are a fully paid up member of the UK population you qualify for an EHIC during your travels on holiday.

An accountant should be able to minimise the tax requirement legally. ( Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion isn't )

[/quote]

In order to be a UK tax resident - rather than just 'domiciled' or 'normally resident' - you need to spend time there; either at least 183 days per year, or an average of 91 days per year over four years. See IR20. To qualify for NHS membership, you must be in 'stable residence', which basically means that you should have been there for six months without any long breaks or that you are currently paying NI contributions. Without these you cannot legally get either free NHS treatment or an EHIC. There are proper ways of overcoming this limitation; the 'normally resident' status and the E106 and other similar forms are the best known, but both of these can only apply for a limited time.

Once you become eligible for E121 then the situation changes, at least as far as healthcare in France is concerned.

As Powerdesal says, there are ways of avoiding rather than evading tax, and a good accountant - with knowledge of tax and social security in both Britain and France - is essential, particularly if you are to gain, or maintain, eligibility to health and social security. Unfortunately several of the 'experts' who contribute to magazines and websites do not appear to have the necessary up-to-date knowledge.