Adequate finances to live in France?

[Poppy]

Sorry didn't read previous posts properly.

[Ron Avery]

Charentaise wrote

" Your comment:
"Don't you believe it, quite a few brits in SE France  etc ..
was totally irrelevant to this thread............ "

Perhaps you can explain how my response to a post by Keelstow stating that "one cannot be means tested after 5 years" can be irrelevant in a thread called "Adequate finances to live in France" when my post stated that checks on income of residents are carried out by CPAM officials and if people are found to understating it they are prosecuted?

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="cooperlola"]At the risk of going round it circles.  Surely, Ron, after five years, if you lose your income for any reason (say, for instance, you are widowed and your income source from your o/h dries up) and you legitimately fall below the level where you can begin to claim benefits, then you may do so?  To my mind, Clair's post only refers to those whose income is belied by their lifestyle (possibly because they are doing  sly work on the black - hence the "cheat" reference)?  My point being that those who are genuinely in need, are entitled to state support, once the five years is up.  Before then, the minimum income level is a requirement.  But obviously, I stand to be corrected.[/quote]

Totally agree Coops and you are correct in the context of people who are in the situations that you describe who are resident.  Yes they can claim if they find themselves in trouble, but at the risk of saying it again, my point was about the statement that I interpreted to be saying that effectively there is no means testing after 5 years of residence.  That is certainly true for residence purpose but for completeness, I thought it might be helpful to point out that its not true in the context of making claims for assistance, heating allowances, CMU complementaire etc all of which are means tested.

[Will]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

It would be interesting to hear from somebody who's been here since the days when it was previously necessary for EU citizens to prove this. What went on then, exactly? 

[/quote]

I remember having to provide copies of employment contracts and several months' worth of bank statements were demanded by the préfecture to back those figures up. Yet a friend in a neighbouring département, with no income at all (apart from a bit of capital from English house sale and partner's income from black-market building work) had to provide no evidence whatever.

 

[Maria]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Charentaise wrote

" Your comment:

"Don't you believe it, quite a few brits in SE France  etc ..

was totally irrelevant to this thread............ "

Perhaps you can explain how my response to a post by Keelstow stating that "one cannot be means tested after 5 years" can be irrelevant in a thread called "Adequate finances to live in France" when my post stated that checks on income of residents are carried out by CPAM officials and if people are found to understating it they are prosecuted?

[/quote]because keelstow wasn't talking about understating income - nobody was!  We were talking about stating true income and how much it needed to be to be allowed to stay in France!  Keelstow was saying you wouldn't need to prove you were earning enough after five years - not suggesting that anyone would turn around at that point and cheat and start understating their income so that they could become a fraudulent burden on the state! 

My query is what types of income would be accepted.  A brief look around recent threads shows that there are a few types of income that perhaps would be excluded under the 5 year rule because they couldn't be guaranteed to continue for that period and beyond.  Examples are disability/incapacity related income from the UK (reviewed every two years for government benefits and at varying times for private benefits); child benefit and tax credits from the UK which are attached to invalidity benefit and therefore also could be lost within two years (ie less than the five years) or at any time in the future after a review; talking of children - what about child support payments, which may end within the five years or shortly after, depending upon the age of the child? 

See what I mean - would all of these types of  ' possibly temporary' income be excluded by the authorities and not be allowed to contribute to the total income taken into account?  As for French benefits that can't be claimed; what about French top up child benefit payments - are these to cease too?  What about that grant that people with kids get at the start of the school year - is that to be stopped too?  If not (if they're not means tested or if you don't have to wait until officially resident after 5 yrs to claim them) do they get included in the total income you would have if you lived in France?

[artsole]

If it's possible to say something on this subject..............without being jumped on[+o(]

I've now lived in France full time since 2000..................Got my CdS in 2002. I had several different jobs up until 2006 (official jobs) In 2006 I registered officially as an 'artiste-pientre' and at the same time I registered unemployed with ANPE and on the basis of my previous work, started to receive benefits through ASSEDIC, which started at 650€ per month, when this dropped to 450€ month I was also able to claim housing benefit. (CAF)...........at the moment I get 245€ per month towards my rent of  450€; Right, within this regime I am allowed to earn in the region of 800 - 1000€ per month..................which with benefits.....just brings me to SMIC level. Now I am talking artists here.........and not p*ss artists....[:P] the regime for artists, writers, performers is slightly different, I believe. Along with this I have free health care with CPAM/CMU..What was a fact, is that for my unemployment benefit, ASSEDIC accepted the last five years of my pay slips from the uK...............I've got my assedic payments until 2009 unless I become famous and start earning 1000's for my paintings[geek] When my ASSEDIC is finished I roll over to RMI. Now before anyone jumps up and down, I am not 'milking the system'..............it is my right.........as soon as I am able to, I will slip out of the system. Last year I earned in the region of 10,000€ from paintings and fresques...........this will be declared on my next tax form. My ASSEDIC may be adjusted slightly on that basis, but an artist friend has told me no, but perhaps I will pay tax on my income over 6000. With the Maison des Artists I am automaticaly included in the Secu. It's complicated this[Www]

Obviously, someone may have a link which disagrees with what I've said, but it is as I believe (for the moment)[blink] so it's not about 'scroungers' or 'milking the system', but about the rights of EU citizens. and yes, before anyone says it...............I'm an immigrant[:P]

Hope this may help

[cooperlola]

Certainly, artsole, the thing changes when you have employment history - a diffferent scenario from proving income from elsewhere for an inactif.  And I agree with you wholeheartedly, if the benefit is due to you, claim it.

Charentaise, it is interesting to see how Poppy, Will and Will's mate were all treated in quite different ways as regards proof of income, isn't it?  I can see a big range of interpretations coming up in the future on this one - as there seems to have been in the past.

[Maria]

[quote user="cooperlola"]Charentaise, it is interesting to see how Poppy, Will and Will's mate were all treated in quite different ways as regards proof of income, isn't it?  I can see a big range of interpretations coming up in the future on this one - as there seems to have been in the past.[/quote]I know - nightmare scenario!

I think this bit of my post may have got lost as I edited it whilst artsole was replying: (and yes - every department might decide on these issues separately!)

My query is what types of income would be accepted.  A brief look

around recent threads shows that there are a few types of income that

perhaps would be excluded under the 5 year rule because they couldn't

be guaranteed to continue for that period and beyond.  Examples are

disability/incapacity related income from the UK (reviewed every two

years for government benefits and at varying times for private

benefits); child benefit and tax credits from the UK which are attached

to invalidity benefit and therefore also could be lost within two years

(ie less than the five years) or at any time in the future after a

review; talking of children - what about child support payments, which

may end within the five years or shortly after, depending upon the age

of the child? 

See what I mean - would all of these types of 

' possibly temporary' income be excluded by the authorities and not be

allowed to contribute to the total income taken into account?  As for

French benefits that can't be claimed; what about French top up child

benefit payments - are these to cease too?  What about that grant that

people with kids get at the start of the school year - is that to be

stopped too?  If not (if they're not means tested or if you don't have

to wait until officially resident after 5 yrs to claim them) do they

get included in the total income you would have if you lived in France?

[Cerise]

For our CdS we had to jump through hoops, have letter from bank saying we had adequate savings to stay here as we intended to work after a period of renovation.  As an added bonus they took ages and were very unpleasant to my husband who is English but not white - initially refusing him CdS under all kinds of mad pretexts.  HOWEVER - at the same time as we arrived, another English family turned up here.  They did absolutely nothing, simply started working on the black.  Registered with nobody, did nowt, use E111 (as it was) and carried on as normal.  The interesting thing is they are still here several years later, no one has ever challenged them, no-one seems to care.  We often look at them and reckon we're the crazy ones.  They have a pretty decent life style, new car, seem OK.  If anyone French despises them they certainly don't show it.  No one seems to know where any money they have comes from - more to the point no-one seems to care.

The point I'm making, I suppose is exactly what would anyone do if you came and lived here with INadequate income.  Absolutely nothing I deeply suspect so long as you lived on whatever you had and didn't try to claim benefits.  I've heard all the usual tales about people getting shopped etc but frankly don't believe them.  My friend works in the Trésor Publique and tells me many people haven't paid the local taxes or impots for years - yet little is done against them, even though everyone knows where they are.  I sometimes fear that forumites (me included) worry far too much.  I don't think anyone will ever do more than a cursory check so if people have sold a house in UK an,d have a little capital they could simply pay in the minimum sum to their bank account for a few months and voila proof of income.

[Sunday Driver]

Up until now, EU citizens have not needed to obtain any official clearance to live here (eg, carte de sejour), so their existence has been largely uncontrolled.  There has been little or no co-ordination between the tax/healthcare/social security authorities, so that many of the people mentioned by Cerise have been able to 'live under the radar'.

The new regulations cleverly put the onus back on the basic local authority - the maires - who now have to issue residency certificates, backed up by evidence of resources.  It'd be difficult for a maire to claim he didn't know you were resident in his commune. It'd also be relatively simple for the authorities to compare the income initially declared for the residence certificate with that subsequently declared for tax.

The Lutte Contres les Frauds means that things are becoming more joined up, so the days of people like the Dordogneshire benefit cheats are likely to be numbered - that'll keep Ron happy......[;-)]

In terms of qualifying income for inactives, the maires will be issued with the necessary guidelines.  I expect that 'official and verifiable' income like pensions/benefits will be acceptable and the more intangible sources such as 'money left over from the house purchase/renovation project' will be subject to greater scrutiny.

 

 

 

[Lizfjr]

All this is very interesting. Having read up on various sources, including info here, we went over to the mairie last week. We had been here just short of three months. We went over armed with pay slips, passports and various bits of paper to show that we were adequately catered for. Having read stuff on here, were feeling quite apprehensive. The maire (who we had met a few years ago when we got our PdeC) was there when we arrived. They were nice as anything. Filled in forms so that we are registered to vote and wrote our names in a little excercise book and gave us the latest version of the local bulletin and had a chat about bits and pieces. Nothing vey formal. No scrutiny of accounts. Just our passports used to verify our identity. Now we feel legit, which is quite nice, but really it wasn't a scary process.

[Sunday Driver]

The decree enacting the new registration certificates has not yet been issued, so you have just slipped through.....[;-)]

Unless you are in the little exercise book for a follow up visit....[:-))]