Tax form 2047 problems

[martin]

I receive a UK local government pension which is taxed in the UK. - my sole source of income.

I filled in the tax forms which were sent to me but I subsequently received a demand to pay tax here in France. 

I tried to sort the problem out on the telephone, but only got through to a lady on the Help Desk who said that it was my fault because I had omitted to state on the form 2047 that I was taxed in the UK.   Anyway, they have now sent me a fresh form 2047 so I have another chance.

I'm sure this is all very straighforward to most people in my position, but I can't work out where on the form I state how much tax I paid and that it was deducted in The UK.

I'd be very grateful for some help on this one.

 

 

[Russethouse]

Have you checked the FAQs ?

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1196188/ShowPost.aspx

 

[JohnRoss]

For a little more detail and as an ex teacher in the same situation I do the following: On 2047 on the last page section VII I put my name in column 1. Royaume-Uni in column 2. The words "Pension de Gouv R-U" in column 3 The Gross amount in Column 4 and again in 4 along side "Total de chaque colonne". Also in column 4 by "Total à reporter Ligne 8 TI etc" the Net amount. The tax paid in the UK in column 5. I also add the words "Impots payée a la source en R-U sur retraites".  I then put the Net amount in box TI on form 2042. I don't include my teachers pension in box AS form 2042 but I do include a small pension from previous employment before I went to the chalk face.

It is open to debate as to if you put anything on page 1 of 2047, I have had two accountants here in France at one time or another and one did include the teachers pension on page 1 as well as page 4 with a note saying that so much tax had been paid in the UK and the other did not. I use page 1 only to declare wife's pension and my other small pension which is taxable in France. The thing is that if you fill in box TI on the 2042 they can take this into account when calculating your RFR (Revenu fiscal de référence). There are several "experts" on this forum who will no doubt jump in if I have it wrong!..................................................JR  

PS I would be better off if I could be taxed here in France on my main pension but not possible for me, I take it that you have checked that you are in the same boat.

[parsnips]

Hi John ,

       Like you I have a"government" pension (fire service). Everything you put on the 2047 sec.VII is correct, and you rightly transfer the net figure to Box TI on 2042. The only pensions to be entered on page 1 are UK State Pension, and any private or non government occupational pensions, which are then entered on page 3 box AS or BS( for spouse)of 2042.You should definitely not put your teacher's pension on page 1 of 2047 because this could cause confusion and possibly lead to it being wrongly taxed in France.

       Like you also, I would be much better off if taxed here, as would anybody with a moderate income , and yet I find many english pensioners who try to avoid registering for tax here  because they have swallowed Brown's bulls**t about the UK having the lowest tax rates in Europe etc.etc. This may be true of the overall tax take, but as we now know the people on modest incomes are hammered while the Non-Doms and International conglomerates are given preferential treatment viz. Murdoch for example. 

[JohnRoss]

Hi and thanks for the confirmation that I am doing it right. Hope our input has been of some help to Martin. I think, like you, it would be a mistake to put a govt pension on page 1 of the 2047 and I don't do it. They have made mistakes on my tax in the past so they don't need me to help them get it wrong! The 10p rate thing has pushed my UK tax up a bit and still not sure what, if anything, is available to compensate us as was promised!...................JR

[Weegie]

In a similar situation (Police Pension).  As has been said don't include any amounts which are taxed in UK anywhere other than in Section V11 of 2047 and then transfer net amount to 2042 TI.  I do put UK State Pension in Section 1.  Just one addition though, which hasn't been mentioned, you can can claim the cost of transferring money (Bank Charges) from UK to France as part of "Frais réel" in Section VII 6 and deduct in calculating the net figure.

Not a massive difference in tax due but anything is better than nothing.

[martin]

Thank-you all very much for your advice, I will follow your guidelines and print out the above postings to keep for future reference.

Russethouse - thanks for directing me to the FAQs; I did check them out before I posted, but my particular query wasn't covered in enough detail; maybe they could be "upgraded" with this detailed info.

Incidentally because of my error, I received a French tax demand for 730 euro, so I presume this is what I would be paying here rather than the 2,335 pounds I have to pay in the UK. 

The official argument for taxing govt pensions in UK is that for the 30 years (in my case) I was paying my contributions, they were tax free so now it's pay-back time.  I wonder if anyone in the EU has ever tried to change this  ruling through the courts?

 

[Jotty]

It always pays to check our Avis d'imposition.

Twice the tax office have got mine wrong, by forgetting to take 2047 into account.

The first time I didn't notice, and suddenly got a huge rebate on my Taxe d'habitation, since I was no longer above the ceiling at which you pay it, so I had to explain and pay it again.

This time I have noticed, emailed them and now received an corrected Avis, so I won't have that problem.

It shows that they are not infallible, and could even err in the other direction.

On the point of how much tax is paid respectively in France and the UK, don't for get that French pensioners continue to pay Social Security charges, a  not inconsiderable sum, as well as Income tax, so that should be taken into account.

Someone on a UK local government pension, an Old Age pension, and with an E121 is getting the basic health cover paid for by the UK.

He or she is only paying UK income tax, and possibly a small French income tax on the OAP part.

A French pensioner pays Social security charges AND French income tax.

Of course the both  French and English pensioner  might decide to pay for a mutuelle, but they are equal in that.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Jotty"]It always pays to check our Avis d'imposition.
Twice the tax office have got mine wrong, by forgetting to take 2047 into account.
The first time I didn't notice, and suddenly got a huge rebate on my Taxe d'habitation, since I was no longer above the ceiling at which you pay it, so I had to explain and pay it again.
This time I have noticed, emailed them and now received an corrected Avis, so I won't have that problem.
It shows that they are not infallible, and could even err in the other direction.

[/quote]

There should be no case of the tax office getting things wrong by 'forgetting' to take the 2047 into account.

The 2047 is the form for declaring foreign revenues and for calculating the basis of the final figures that you transfer to the actual 2042 tax declaration. If the 2047 has been completed correctly and the totals transferred correctly to the 2042, then that should be it.  If certain information on the 2047 has been incorrectly transferred to or omitted from the 2042 then that's not really the fault of the tax office....

 

[Jotty]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

[quote user="Jotty"]It always pays to check our Avis d'imposition.

Twice the tax office have got mine wrong, by forgetting to take 2047 into account.

The first time I didn't notice, and suddenly got a huge rebate on my Taxe d'habitation, since I was no longer above the ceiling at which you pay it, so I had to explain and pay it again.

This time I have noticed, emailed them and now received an corrected Avis, so I won't have that problem.

It shows that they are not infallible, and could even err in the other direction.

[/quote]

There should be no case of the tax office getting things wrong by 'forgetting' to take the 2047 into account.

The 2047 is the form for declaring foreign revenues and for calculating the basis of the final figures that you transfer to the actual 2042 tax declaration. If the 2047 has been completed correctly and the totals transferred correctly to the 2042, then that should be it.  If certain information on the 2047 has been incorrectly transferred to or omitted from the 2042 then that's not really the fault of the tax office....[/quote]

But it hadn't!..

I have the  electronic cerificate showing that I had submitted both forms, and I have copies of both.

I have been doing this for many years and understand completely how to do it.

Here is the the message from the Tax office:

Monsieur,
Vous allez recevoir très prochainement un avis rectificatif pour vos
revenus perçus à l'étranger.
Veuillez recevoir, Monsieur, mes salutations distinguées.
L’Agent Administratif Principal des Impôts

The correct Avis has now arrived.

My message is simply that the Tax office can and do make mistakes, and even dogmatic assertions made in ignorance of the situation don't change that, even they are  uttered 'ex Cathedra' by an amateur 'expert'.

[Panda]

Hmm, I filled in my tax return online and I also think that despite me completing all of the correct areas my income from rentals does not appear on the Avis which turned up recently.  I went on to check that I had transferred the figures from the revenue fonciere working document to the main return and I had.  It is exactly the same as last years but this one figure has not been taken into account.

So can we assume that despite the completion being online some kind of clunky data transfer takes place when  they produce the final document?? 

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Jotty"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

[quote user="Jotty"]It always pays to check our Avis d'imposition.
Twice the tax office have got mine wrong, by forgetting to take 2047 into account.
The first time I didn't notice, and suddenly got a huge rebate on my Taxe d'habitation, since I was no longer above the ceiling at which you pay it, so I had to explain and pay it again.
This time I have noticed, emailed them and now received an corrected Avis, so I won't have that problem.
It shows that they are not infallible, and could even err in the other direction.

[/quote]

There should be no case of the tax office getting things wrong by 'forgetting' to take the 2047 into account.

The 2047 is the form for declaring foreign revenues and for calculating the basis of the final figures that you transfer to the actual 2042 tax declaration. If the 2047 has been completed correctly and the totals transferred correctly to the 2042, then that should be it.  If certain information on the 2047 has been incorrectly transferred to or omitted from the 2042 then that's not really the fault of the tax office....[/quote]

But it hadn't!..

I have the  electronic cerificate showing that I had submitted both forms, and I have copies of both.

I have been doing this for many years and understand completely how to do it.

Here is the the message from the Tax office:

Monsieur,

Vous allez recevoir très prochainement un avis rectificatif pour vos
revenus perçus à l'étranger.

Veuillez recevoir, Monsieur, mes salutations distinguées.

L’Agent Administratif Principal des Impôts

The correct Avis has now arrived.

My message is simply that the Tax office can and do make mistakes, and even dogmatic assertions made in ignorance of the situation don't change that, even they are  uttered 'ex Cathedra' by an amateur 'expert'.

[/quote]

You miss the point.

Your original complaint was that the tax office had got things wrong because they'd forgotten to take the 2047 into account.  That suggests that there may have been something on the 2047 which needed to be consulted before they could process the 2042 tax declaration.  As the 2047 is essentially a calculation worksheet and the totals for each category of foreign income must be transferred to the 2042 - which is the document used as the basis for inputting your details to the tax system - it was therefore reasonable to comment upon a potential omission.

If, as you now tell us, they merely omitted to process one of the fields on the 2042, then that is a straightforward input error and there's no argument about that.  However, if that has been the case, then it's nothing to do with them 'forgetting to take the 2047 into account'.

Not a dogmatic assertion made in ignorance of the situation by an amateur expert - just a simple reponse based on what you have been telling us......[8-)]

 

 

 

[Panda]

Do you think they rekey the online submissions, surely not??

Hold on though this is France why am I acting surprised, I have yet to come across a fully integrated system for doing anything here!

[Sunday Driver]

No, the data which is entered by the declarant on the 2042 (and it's supplimentary versions), either submitted in paper form or entered online - is that which generates the tax calculation.  A paper declaration has scope for incorrect input by the tax office.  An error arising from an on-line declaration would clearly be down to the person inputting the data....[Www]

 

[Panda]

But, but but.....I have a copy which clearly shows my figure in the right box and I compared it to the one from last year, so it can't be finger trouble on my part.  I must admit I thought it was was when I first saw it.  I have checked the filed copy on the site, the 2042 and supps all show my figure, the Avis does not.

I will go and find a bod in the tax office to see what they think.  It makes no odds really tax wise as I am working off a big surplus from renovations but the figure does normally show.

[Sunday Driver]

In your case, if you've correctly input the figures you intended to declare, then your tax is automatically calculated from those figures.  There must be some other factor that is influencing your result. 

 

[allanb]

SD: does this mean that in the case of an on-line declaration the final assessment is generated without the need for any human intervention?

[Sunday Driver]

I would imagine that was the main purpose of designing such a system.  You would expect that any human intervention would be limited to investigating queries generated by exception reports.

 

 

[dr orloff]

I am struggling to remember.  I think that the instructions for filling in on-line declarations stated that filling in a box on an ancillary form such as the 2047 automatically populated the main declaration 2042.  Am I right?

 

 

[Sunday Driver]

I can't remember either, but it would be logical for the system to be set up to do that.

 

Cue all the "Ah, but this is France" jibes.........[;-)]

 

 

[Jotty]

[quote user="allanb"]SD: does this mean that in the case of an on-line declaration the final assessment is generated without the need for any human intervention?

[/quote]

I checked this today with a friend who works in the tax office (but in the business department, not the individual)

She tells me that it should work automatically as SD says  (ie go over from one It system to another)  but as I and other have found there seems to be a glitch in the system.

If they get many more example like ours they are going to have to look at the problem.

Perhaps we are all right?

SD for the theory, and me for the practice?

[Weegie]

[quote user="dr orloff"]

I am struggling to remember.  I think that the instructions for filling in on-line declarations stated that filling in a box on an ancillary form such as the 2047 automatically populated the main declaration 2042.  Am I right?[/quote]

 My experience is that this is not the case.  Having completed 2047 I omitted to transfer the figures (Section VII to 2042TI) they were not transferred automatically and it was necessary to submit an amendment.   As it happened this was missed and I had to contact the Centre d'Impôts to point out that my Avis had not taken the amendment into account when calculating my RFR.

I suggest that the phrasing when completing on line, which echos the paper form, "Montant à reporté 2042 TI" would indicate that it is not carried forward automatically.

 

[dr orloff]

What I would like to establish is whether the online declaration system is designed to work like that - ie: you must complete the same box on forms 2047 and 2042 individually, or if there is a bug and the system is not working as it should by updating form 2042 with the input from 2047.  I rather think the latter.

 

 

 

 

[allanb]

[quote user="dr orloff"]I think that the instructions for filling in on-line declarations stated that filling in a box on an ancillary form such as the 2047 automatically populated the main declaration 2042.  Am I right?[/quote]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]...it would be logical for the system to be set up to do that. 

[/quote]

I agree.  However, if it was set up in that way, you wouldn't expect to find the same boxes available for input on 2042.

We need some brave person to test this on line next year, by reporting a number on 2047 and deliberately entering a slightly different number in the corresponding field of 2042.  I would volunteer myself, but I think I'm going to be busy that week.

[Weegie]

Unfortunately I believe I too will be unable to try Allan's suggestion.  On a serious note, I think the evidence from both our experiences is that the transfer is not automatic.  From what you have said, dr o, I would not be too concerned about explaining that the error was nothing other than an oversight. 

I would go further and suggest that the psyche of the staff at the H d'I might be such that apparently accepting the fault oneself might be better received than suggesting that the system is wrong. A point of view?[8-|][:D]