What info do I need to work out my tax ....

[Judith]

This is not as daft as it sounds.  OH already in the system, since he came out in 2005.  After some difficulty, I have persuaded him that we need to put me onto his form, and I can work out that since I came in Oct 2008, they only need to know about the 3 months of last year at the mo.  So I can ignore any transactions from this year, but do I give them a snapshot of what I had (savings mainly, no pension yet), at the end of December.  If not, how on earth do I work out the three months, (is it the difference between the two?)  Sorry, not too good at this, first one I've ever filled in....

Also, its mainly savings, the UK ones have already been taxed, so how do I account for those.  Some savings have not matured yet, and so no interest or tax paid yet - and usually annual ones, how do I cope with those??  Do I take 3 months "allowance"?

I've looked at the FAQs, but they do not answer this particular situation as far as I can see.

I'm really trying to work out what printouts I need when we go to see the tax man tomorrow.

[Benjamin]

There are two schools of thought on this one and each will be mentioned in further answers.

One is that you should calculate the gross interest on savings and declare that. The other is that you only declare the gross interest when you actually receive it.

Personally I use the second method since once you've got the first year over, or in your case, three months, it all comes out in the wash anyway.

As far as regaining the tax you have already paid then this is covered in the FAQ's. You will need to complete a P85 and an FD5.

[Benjamin]

p s

Where are Ron and Sunday Driver? What a time to go missing, just when you really need them. Couldn't they work out a rota to give 24 hour cover for goodness sake?

[:D][:P][6][:D]

[Judith]

Benjamin,

Thanks, your second option seems a good way forward.  Hubby says not to make it too complicated, the tax men here don't want to know if it's too difficult.  Most of the savings are in bonds etc, so no interest yet, and not accessible. I've started on the HMRC forms, only found the FD5 by looking at FAQs so that will get done, but not tonight as I'm going out....

It's not that I want to do anyone out of the tax I'm due to pay, but between the UK and French systems, plus being out of work before I came (therefore no tax paid),  but having savings taxed in the UK (cos I didn't get round to doing the applications for gross interest until now)  does make it less than straightforward, when all I've experienced before is PAYE with tax taken off at source!

As you say, next year it should all be straighter, even though by then I will be in receipt of several bits of pension, some received here and some in the UK, which will add yet another angle to be worked upon .... this is certainly one of the things I don't like about France ....

[seb47]

I'm with your OH on this one. In the absence of other posts (and there may be some to the contrary) you may be better off forgetting tax year 2008 for French tax purposes. It is very late, especially in your circumstances, to be rushing around trying to get everything together for the French return and then trying to claim back overpaid tax/tax on interest in the UK. I've even heard of similar circumstances where the french taxman has suggested you go away and leave it until next year. Make a clean break for tax year 2009, then you have plenty of time to submit an FD5 and P85 and get all your ducks in a row by May 2010.

Peter

[Benjamin]

With due respect seb47 Judith doesn't have a choice. She was permanently resident from the day she arrived and therefore, irrespective of a verbal opinion expressed by someone working in the tax office, she must declare in  France.

I can understand why this opinion may have been expressed when someone's income is so low as to not attract any tax in the first months they are here but it still doesn't make it right.

[Sunday Driver]

This is really quite simple - it's all in the FAQ.

Just list down the interest that was credited to your UK savings account(s) during October, November and December.  Convert the gross amounts to euros using either the exchange rate on the date credited to the account or the French tax office concessionary annual composite rate (e-mail your tax office for the exact figure) and give the total to your OH to include on his tax declaration together with your bank details for the foreign bank account declaration.  It's then down to you to reclaim the UK tax from HMRC. 

You do not have to do any printouts to give to the tax man - you do not even have to go and see him.  All your OH needs to do is complete his tax declaration, sign it and send it in.

The same as 50 million French people do.....[;-)]

 

 

 

[Judith]

SD

Thanks.  Sorry, I'm still being obtuse.   So I only work out the interest for those 3 months (not sure I have it, but I'll see what I can do, I've got an annual figure, if needed I'll do a division).  When you say gross amounts - is that the capital giving that interest??  Some of the savings have not yet had any interest added yet, or only at the end of the UK tax year, so I cannot find out interest paid month by month - do I just ignore those?  I've also got some French interest to declare, but I've had a form about that.

Yes, I know we do not need to visit the tax office, but the real problem is OH filling in his tax form - he got a man (who spoke good English) in the tax office to do it for him last year because he doesn't know what to do with it (and won't look at such things as the forum to help him - I've tried that one) - but unfortunately the nice man is no longer there, and the receptionist today was the "blocking" sort - and we got nowhere.  (Though I got a 2047 form from him so I supposed that was helpful - if only I knew what to put in it!)

Since all the interest in the UK has had tax paid on it, it is very tempting to ignore it, but I know I should not.

Also what do I do about the assurance vie's I have here in France - are they declared or not.

I suppose what I am asking is - is it just any interest I declare, or the capital which creates that interest as well??

[suein56]

[quote user="Judith"]

I suppose what I am asking is - is it just any interest I declare, or the capital which creates that interest as well?? 

[/quote]

The interest is your income and needs to go down on the form; do not put your capital down.

Sue

[Judith]

Sue

Thanks for such a plain explanation.  Over lunch I began to realise it was income tax - so must be the interest, though I have not used it as income (weird way of looking at it I know - but my mind and such things do not work together well).  So, now I just need to find some equitable way of working out 3 months interest - and if I didn't receive any in those three months I can forget it, I think.  Festina lente, but I'm getting there.

[Patf]

If you can lay hands on a Connexion newspaper for last month they have produced a supplement to help fill out the french tax forms. Assuming they are accurate, it's very helpful.

When I fill out our forms I use the UK figures and pro-rate - divide by 12 and multiply by 4 and 8 - as everyone else does I expect. Then change to euros.

 

 

 

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

This is really quite simple - it's all in the FAQ.

Just list down the interest that was credited to your UK savings account(s) during October, November and December. 

[/quote]

My earlier posting explained how I do it. As far as I can see from Sunday Driver's posting he's saying exactly the same thing so only list interest you actually received in those three months.

[tinabee]

[quote user="Judith"]

Since all the interest in the UK has had tax paid on it, it is very tempting to ignore it, but I know I should not.


[/quote]

On your UK bank statements it should show how much gross interest you received and how much tax you paid on this. Declare the gross interest on your French tax form and then claim back the interest you have already paid to the Inland Revenue by using form R43 - which you can get here

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/nonresidents/fagallow_nonres.shtml

That way you will get back what you have already paid in tax, even though you haven't yet done your FD5/France Individual form.

[Ron Avery]

"When I fill out our forms I use the UK figures and pro-rate - divide by 12 and multiply by 4 and 8 - as everyone else does I expect. Then change to euros."

I doubt anyone has a clue what you are talking about, let alone doing the same. [8-)]

[Patf]

I think I condensed it too much.

What I meant was, because the uk tax year goes from 1 April to 31 March, and the french one from Jan 1 to Dec. 31, part( 4 months) of your french return comes from the uk income for year 2007-8 and part (8 months) from 2008-9. So you need to work out the monthly amount (divide by 12) for each, then multiply one figure by 4 and  the other by 8. Then add together and voila!

I would have thought you would have understood Ron [:)]

[Judith]

Many thanks to all - but I'm still confused!

I'm afraid that with internet banking you do not get statements each month, unless you print them, and I didn't.  And in one I can only print 90 past days worth.  But the whole of that year only came to £144, so three months isn't going to be much.  And in one,  they only tell you the amount at the end of the tax year.  However, since I did a divide by 12, multiply by three, and the interest (all of it) came to £148 I don't think  I'm going to worry overmuch, especially since I have paid tax on it in the UK, and also since I still cannot equate what it says in the tax FAQs (where is col 5 on 2047 - I'm blowed if I can find it) to what the forms seem to want, I will add my very small pension (less that £1500) to the amount my OH will fill in, and that will do this year.  I'm off to the UK next week, and so this will have to suffice for  this year. 

I must admit, having now looked at the French tax forms in some detail I cannot believe they can make it so complicated - I'm quite happy to tell anyone what I earned, and pay my taxes, but finding where to put it on form is not something I'm prepared to spend a long time on since I know I will still not know where to put it at the end. 

And, I'm sorry, folks, but the FAQs only helped to tell me where to put the pension income, the rest was no use at all to me.

All in all, I'd rather have to fill in a UK form on my own account, rather than having OH fill  in a French form - at least when I do it, I know it's done - too independent by half - but then I have worked and paid all my own tax all my adult / professional life.  France is really rather backward in this respect.

[Ron Avery]

I just enter the amounts I receive as income between January 1 and December 31st, its far easier,[:D] 

Yes now you explain it, I can see the logic for those who don't get their money sent to France directly and rely on P60s to know what they were paid.

PS  The French tax form is not confusing at all, thousands of lesser mortals manage it every year,  The difference is they can be bothered to make an effort in both understanding it and filling it in properly.[:@]

[LesLauriers]

Judith, I think that you are missing the point!

You do not apportion interest received, the taxable event occurs when the interest is paid to you and not when the interest is accrued.

For example you recieve £100 interest after tax 2 days after you arrive in France, that interest accrued whilst you were a UK tax resident but received when you were a French tax resident, so you would declare £125 on the French tax return and claim back £25 from the UK tax man.

Another example could be a 25 year endowment policy that matures 2 days after you arrive in France, it would be tax free in the UK but any profit would be taxable in France.  Effectively taxing you on "interest" or "gain" credited to your policy at any time in the previous 25 years, because the taxable event (you being paid out) was after you became subject to French and not UK tax regulations.

So in your case you only need to look at interest received since arriving in France.

As for your internet Bank statements, you will have to print these off each month and keep them for the French tax man, should he ask to see them.

[suein56]

[quote user="LesLauriers"]

As for your internet Bank statements, you will have to print these off each month and keep them for the French tax man, should he ask to see them.

[/quote]

A valid point, worth taking note of.*

*Written by someone who (nearly) always forgets to download relevent statements until it is almost too late. [Www].

Sue

[Ron Avery]

"As for your internet Bank statements, you will have to print these off each month and keep them for the French tax man, should he ask to see them."

Interested to know which UK internet bank does not provide back statements.  With both the HSBC and Nat West you can go back many months and get statements on-line certainly back throughout 2008.  In any case a simple phone call would suffice in getting the necessary information if "one can be bothered"[:$].

[suein56]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Interested to know which UK internet bank does not provide back statements.  [/quote]

First Direct goes back 90 days.

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

In any case a simple phone call would suffice in getting the necessary information if "one can be bothered"[:$].

[/quote]

I bothered, the one time I did forget, and it cost me £10 for the 'missed' statement.

Sue

[Judith]

[quote user="LesLauriers"]Judith, I think that you are missing the point!

You do not apportion interest received, the taxable event occurs when the interest is paid to you and not when the interest is accrued.

For example you recieve £100 interest after tax 2 days after you arrive in France, that interest accrued whilst you were a UK tax resident but received when you were a French tax resident, so you would declare £125 on the French tax return and claim back £25 from the UK tax man.

Another example could be a 25 year endowment policy that matures 2 days after you arrive in France, it would be tax free in the UK but any profit would be taxable in France.  Effectively taxing you on "interest" or "gain" credited to your policy at any time in the previous 25 years, because the taxable event (you being paid out) was after you became subject to French and not UK tax regulations.

So in your case you only need to look at interest received since arriving in France.

As for your internet Bank statements, you will have to print these off each month and keep them for the French tax man, should he ask to see them.

[/quote]

Yes, I definitely am - since it is still not clear to  me.

There is only one bank savings I have which credits interest monthly, and it is those statements I do not have. (well I have a December figure, and there is no way I am going to go hunting for the others - the amount will be very small. )  The others, I did not receive the interest in the tax year in question - ie only rec'd in March this year, so according to what you say, I can discount those until next year. 

Unfortunately, I am neither mathematician or economist, and I find all such subjects "difficult".  And I still think the French tax form one of the most complicated forms I have ever seen in my life!

[Sunday Driver]

With respect, I'm surprised that as a professional researcher and someone who has previously offered advice here about a complex investment product, you are finding it difficult to come to terms with the basic concept of interest versus capital and its treatment in relation to income tax.  As regards French tax forms, having to enter a single number in a box could hardly be described as complicated.  The forms even tell you how to figure it out and where to put it.....

 

 

[Judith]

Yes, it does seem strange, but it is the one black hole I have.  Its a form of number blindness, but usually I can manage - once I can get my mind round what is needed.  It is the first time in my life I have had to fill in a tax form having, until now, no complicated affairs, and being employed and paying tax through paye.  With the help given here (thanks to all who were happy to explain it simply), I think I now know what figures I need to include, but reading the 2047 is very difficult - it's in very small print, it doesn't help that it is in red (a very difficult colour for me to read) and because I do not know many of the French financial terms yet, I have some problems understanding each bit.  A dictionary and time would solve it, but time is short because of other comittments I have.

However, since my arrival here has (according to OH) made it too complicated for him to deal with, I now have been given the "authority" to deal with it, which has revealed another problem.  Yes, he has filled in the tax forms each year (at my insistence) before I arrived, with the help of the friendly English speaker at the local tax office, who he has now left, but he (the tax man) was quite happy that OH was paying tax in UK, and so filled in the net figures  (as far as I can see now I have been given the previous forms) and after questioning him, I find that OH has never filled in all the forms to exit the UK tax system, so is still in it, happily paying tax  inthe UK, and the French seem quite happy with it.

Now, this leaves me with a quandary, because by reading this forum I do know what should be done (so no need to repeat it, please).  I have already sent in the "leaving the UK" form, and was about to fill in the FD5 (I think that's the number) to send in with the tax forms, to take me out of the UK system, but if I do so I can see that creating a lot of extra problems I could do without (including a very angry OH - because I have made it too complicated by doing that!).

So, now I don't know whether to send in the UK forms or not!!!  If I am in the system and OH is not, what further complications may that bring???

[Judith]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

 As regards French tax forms, having to enter a single number in a box could hardly be described as complicated.  The forms even tell you how to figure it out and where to put it.....

[/quote]

But that is entirely the problem - the French form is not simple, whatever anyone here says (things are simple if you are used to such things, but not if you aren't) I don't know which box (out of many it could be) to put it in - and the FAQs don't help, because I have examined the form in great detail for column five and can only find a number 5 with loads of columns in it.  Hence the query.  However, I have decide I will copy past years (which have not been put in the boxes as described in the FAQs) and forget what the FAQs say.