E121 & Government service pension on 2042/2047

[Stewart]

Hi, just been to my take office and been instructed to enter my government service pension in box VII on the 2047 and transfer to 2042 8TI...............

My E121 amount to be entered on to 2047 under pensions, retraites, rentes and transferred to 2042 box 1AS..............................

This box 1AS, am i correct in thinking only the E121 amount is entered here, i dont add the figure from box 8TI to this aswell? Just got this doubt in my head...................

I have completed box VIII as per FAQ and signed the declarations and the 3916 is that it, seems to easy.

[cooperlola]

Stewart, you will see from this thread:

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1/2517870/ShowPost.aspx#2517870

that things have changed this year and from the length of it that some tax offices are giving out new instructions whilst some aren't.  There finally seems to be some consensus but until there is the FAQs have remained unchanged since last year.  By the E121 amount, do you mean your old-aged pension as opposed to your retirement pension from your employment?  Because now, it appears, they are indeed being treated differently in many offices.   

[Stewart]

Hello, i get a government service pension, taxable in the UK and incapacity benefit that is taxable in France. Retired early on ill health grounds so not yet claiming state pension................

I read the other forum but im going to go along with what my tax office says, basically told what boxes to fill in then to return and they will check it...................... Just got doubt whether the two sums i get should be added together in box 1AS

[cooperlola]

Gotcha.  From another post - chap in a parallel position to you - slightly adapted:

" add govt pensions and incapacity benefit together and put them in box 1AS on form 2042-K. .......all pensions will go here including private ones. " Thanks to .......JR

So, yes! (in a word.)

[Stewart]

Many thanks Cooperlola, appreciate your replying. The sums have been added.

All the best

Stewart

[cooperlola]

Don't thank me, thank John Ross, who has persisisted with his tax office to get a proper answer!

[Stewart]

Just got back from Tax office in Mayenne and was told not to add them together............

2 people in the tax office have now said (yesterday and today) Government service pension box TI on 2042 form and VIII on 2047. Today told only my IB goes in box 1AS..........................

Shall wait and see what happens. Will post here when a i get a tax bill, or b get the forms back saying wrong boxes and totals.................................

Made me laugh, French Tax office waiting room 7 people seated........All British!

[cooperlola]

[:)]

I think it's bound to be like this for a while.  Do as your tax office says and see what happens

If you look at VIII on your 2047, for example, then you will see that it tells you to transfer that amount to TL, not TI!  Were you told to put your government pension in VI or VII?

From what you say, IB is just treated as a private pension would be so yes, I see the point. 

[Stewart]

Sorry got that wrong Government service pension goes in box VII not VIII. Hit the key once to many times.

VIII Told to leave blank.

So to clarify,

GSP 2047 box VII then on the 2042 box TI

IB 2047 Box 1 then on the 2042 box 1AS

[Boiling a frog]

I suspect that your tax office is not up to speed, Government pensions go in Box VI on the 2047 and then on tp 8TK on the 2042.

Government pensions also go in boxI Pensions Retraites Rentes on the 2047 and then transferred to 1as or 1bs on the 2042.

Everything gross.

That is from our tax office.

[cooperlola]

Also, BaF, shouldn't the IB go into TL, if it is taxed over here or does it go somewhere else?  I don't know because it's not something I've ever got so maybe it's not subject to CRDS, is that it?

Whatever, this tax office does seem to have its knickers in a twist and there was a whole bunch of other Brits getting the same advice by the sound of it.  But it is difficult, as the people on the other thread are saying, when there are so many different versions flying about and people are told to visit the Impots if they are not sure what to do!  Thank goodness mine's easy.[:)]

[parsnips]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Also, BaF, shouldn't the IB go into TL, if it is taxed over here or does it go somewhere else?  I don't know because it's not something I've ever got so maybe it's not subject to CRDS, is that it?

Whatever, this tax office does seem to have its knickers in a twist and there was a whole bunch of other Brits getting the same advice by the sound of it.  But it is difficult, as the people on the other thread are saying, when there are so many different versions flying about and people are told to visit the Impots if they are not sure what to do!  Thank goodness mine's easy.[:)]

[/quote]

Hi,

      As predicted the chaos is spreading!  The only sensible thing to do is complete either way you choose, if you have received no specific letter from your tax office, BUT check your tax "avis" very carefully when it comes, and query any significant increase.

[Stewart]

Hi all. The main thing im concerned about is being correctlly tax.

The tax man said i wont pay tax on the GSP which is correct, the IB will be taxable and i wont be subjebt to social charges as GSP and IB are excempt.

So before i went i new i would be paying tax on the IB and nothing else, so im happy they came to the same conclusion.

The documents were completed to their instructions, will have to wait and see

[cooperlola]

[quote user="parsnips"] any significant increase.
[/quote]The advantage of doing it on line is that you see this straight away (although I think you said your online declaration didn't - how weird is that????)

 

Stewart, your IB is exempt so now it makes sense to me.  Thanks.[:)]  As I've said several times on the other thread - I'd really just like to be sure that  the FAQs are correct but as even the professionals and the experts on here don't agree, I don't think that will happen this year.[:-))]

[AnOther]

[quote user="Stewart"]Hi, just been to my take office[/quote]Freudian slip perhaps !!!

[Stewart]

I think all we can do is what your tax office says and wait the outcome.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Stewart"]I think all we can do is what your tax office says and wait the outcome.[/quote]I'm with you there.  It will drive you bonkers otherwise, apart from anything else.[:)]

[Stewart]

AnOther, nice one! wish i was that clever to say it was wrote on purpose, but unfortunatly wrong glasses on.

[JohnRoss]

My interpretation of what the Parthenay tax controller was saying to me in his email was sum all your pensions and put in box 1AS on the 2042 and ditto on page 1 of the 2047. A UK Government pension which is taxed in the UK should also be entered on its own in box 8TK and not TI to obtain a tax credit equal to what the French tax man has calculated you would pay on it.

So I added my small private pension, my other pension from a previous employment, again small, my State old age pension and my Government Teacher's pension all together and put them in box 1AS. I then put only the Teacher's pension in Box 8TK and section VI on form 2047.

I also made a point on telling them on the online form in the optional notes that I was 67 and on an E121 form as is my wife.

Now I don't know if what I have been told is correct but time will tell. One thing is certain, well almost, the tax credit may not be as large as the tax you pay in the UK so in effect many of us may be paying more income tax one way or the other this year. A lot depends on the size of your govt pension and if your UK personal allowance is less or more than the gross amount of the pension. The increase in UK personal allowance with the arrival of the 65th birthday will help but as far as the French go the tax bands applied must depend on the declared gross amount and I for one have no clue at all how to work out what that means in terms of the amount of the credit impot!

I think a lot of the confusion has been caused by the French tax officers sometimes thinking that the term "State Pension" is the same as "Government pension" which it clearly is not and should be treated as a private pension with no tax paid in ther UK.

As I say time will tell and I can only hope that errors will be put right faster than errors reported to HMRC in the UK. I speak from bitter experience here!.......JR

[parsnips]

Hi JR,

     What you describe is what I have gleaned is the correct procedure.  Provided the credit is equal to the EXTRA tax which is assessed using the the total pension figure , ie. it deals with the situation where you are taken into a higher tax band, then the outcome should be satisfactory.  The french system has never been intended to compensate for the UK tax paid, only to prevent the pension being taxed again in France. As the new system uses the gross figure , UK codes and tax paid there, are irrelevant.

[JohnRoss]

Hi parsnips nice to have my thoughts confirmed. Any idea how the crédit d'impôt is going to be worked out on that portion of your declaration put in box 8TK?............JR

[Boiling a frog]

This is my interpretation but could be wrong

In box 1AS and !BS is your total gross pensions

Amount 27000 €

This is made up of 25000€ Goverment Pension

and

2000€ in State(old age)pension

If this was taxable in France one would pay 600€

However you have declared that 25000€of that in Box 8TK because you have already been taxed in the UK.

You would have paid 500€on the 25000€ if it was taxable in France

Therefore you are given a tax credit of 500€.

Therefor your tax bill in France is 600€ minus 500€( tax credit)

equals 100€

These are not actual amounts of tax on the sums mentioned I have made the figures up just as an example.

[JohnRoss]

(Therefore you are given a tax credit of 500€.) It is how this is calculated that I want to know. If you take the world wide taxable income and divide this by two for a family of two you can then calculate the income tax on one part using the table of published tax bands found in many places on the internet. You can then double this figure to get the tax due.

Now if you take the amount of income that is UK govt pension entered in box 8TK and halve that do you assume that this is the top slice for tax band purposes of one part and having calculated the tax due on that bit do you then double it assume that it is the amount of the tax credit?

Further can you then subtract it from the tax due on world wide income to give the amount of tax that you will pay?....JR

[JohnRoss]

PS I have tried running the figures through the tax calculator they provide both with the total worldwide figures and again without the UK govt pension and the results for tax due are quite different. The differences being the tax due of course, taux moyen d'imposition and taux marginal d'imposition, big differences in both cases.

The other method I have tried is to use the formula: Total French income tax on total gross world income multiplied by all French gross assessable income divided by Total world assessable income where French gross assessable income does not include the Govt pension. This method worked under the previous scheme.

However if you take the taux moyen d'imposition as given by their calculator and calculate what that percentage represents of the tax due on the worldwide income and subtract that from the tax due, the amount you get to be paid is almost equal to the amount determined by the method described above under the previous sheme. Still confused.........JR

[Boiling a frog]

I am also confused why are you adding two incomes then diving the total in two?

AFAIK the total income for a husband and wife is treated as one income for tax purposes, you do not divide by two.

If you use the tax simulator on the impots site put in your total income in boxes 1AS for you !BS for your wife , and providing you have nothing else to declare it will give you your total tax due.

If you then complete the same exercise using only your Govt pensions you will get total tax due.

That figure will be the amount of tax credit due

So if you deduct that firure from the first figure it should give you ,approx the amount of tax you will pay in France

Of course I could be totally wrong