L'energie Eolienne

[Llwyncelyn]

I presume this means wind farms?  Having just been to Percy looked at notices in the Marie and it seems that a public enquiry is going to take place in that an application has been made for ten eoliennes at or near Le Chefresne or Marguray (is that the correct spelling please)

To date we have the THT and whilst one understands at least the 'green' element of producing electricity through wind the structures themselves are to some people unacceptable.

Is there any knowledge on this please?

 

regards

[Dick Smith]

Yes, it's a wind-powered generator.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89olienne

Are you referring to Percy as being in Manche? If so, where exactly are the generators likely to be sited?

[chris pp]

These "enquires" have been and are taking place all over France where the installation of wind generators are proposed and unless there are incredibly good, sound reasons why they shouldn't be in a particular place they get approval.

It would be interesting to know what you mean by "the structures themselves are to some people unacceptable".

Chris

[Dick Smith]

And the definition of 'some people' of course!

[Val_2]

This is a subject that was very relevent where I live some four or five years back but it has been disallowed because of our coastal situation and the opposition of a local protective society regarding flora and fauna etc. The machines themselves have a short lifespan - not usually more than 25 years and anyone living within 300m can suffer bad interference with their television signal, not to mention that noise of the blades turning which is a mechanical noise. Landowners who rent the land for the construction of these machines are laughing as they receive quite a payment each year and on the whole the local commune can benefit quite nicely from lower electricity prices provided there is enough to make it worth while. Personally I rather like eoliennes and cannot agree they ruin the countryside, much rather them than a nasty nuclear facility or belching coal fired chimney.

[Llwyncelyn]

Dear Chris as to the structures I am only in part commented upon what I have seen and witnessed at first hand both in Mid Wales and in Cornwall and where there is a percentage of the population who absolutely hate the structures.  If you go to Mid Wales and see those structures some of the population really argue that they are a monstrosity.  That is not necessarily my view.

As to the location it is vague but it is between as I see it Le Chefresne near Percy and the old route nationale between say Villedieu and Caen/Pont Farcy and fairly adjacent to the A84.

That being the case it is not particularly high and not as exposed as say where we are on the second highest point in Normandie or Pont Farcy.  Thus what is the logic?  No doubt someone will be able to assist?

Again if we are to witness the THT from Flaminville down to Bretagne that seemingly suggests that there is surplus energy? I am not an expert (but feel sure Will can comment) but think that EDF supply energy to the UK.  Thus there is lots of it about?  And they are building another nuclear reactor generation plant at Flaminville.

Therefore Chris if you say that wind farms are going up all over the place in France who benefits please from this 'green energy' is it the local inhabitants or is it the 'global' enterprise(s). 

I am a great convert to alternative and renewable energies I believe in our planet but do not believe in what we are doing to it!  However I am struggling at the moment with the concept hereabouts in the Manche.

 

[Llwyncelyn]

Dick I have answered the question(s) but if you drive down over Bodmin Moor you see the structures.  If you go up through Rhyader in Mid Wales you see them.  Some of the inhabitants in these areas (and as bettered demonstrated through press TV and having lived in Wales for well over 60 years) say they hate them.  Others like them.  That is all I am saying.

I am not voicing a personal opinion (although I have one).  Dick if they were stuck say 20 of them in and around Mortain what would your view (and not in the sense of their locations) be?

 

rdgs

[Dick Smith]

I think to be honest that I would like to see them - at a distance! That isn't a nimby comment, I just think they can look very striking ona skyline. They are aesthetically preferable to high-tension lines. The noise I haven't personally experienced, so I can't comment.

I did see a UK TV news item yesterday on an eco-friendly Tesco store which has just opened. It has  50% reduced carbon footprint, and makes enough energy to power the tills from two small wind-powered generators (and more from photo-voltaics). Interestingly the building is timber-framed, thoroughly insulated and allows for the maximum use of natural light. Unfortunately the eco-warrior comment was pretty measly, simply saying that they could have done better. To me it is like dogs walking on their hind legs - not surprising that they do it well, but that they do it at all!

[Llwyncelyn]

Dick as to sky lines I somewhat agree.  But as to Le Chefresne you must know it and its not very high at all and the connurbation is wide spread and with little pockets of inhabitation.  Ok if it went on top of Pont Farcy or Mont Robin (where I live) I can understand for if last night is anything to go by and with forecasts of 100km winds tomorrow then yes I truly can understand.  But on a plain in a dip? What is the commercial logic and there must be a pay-back in economic terms for those investing the capital.  Where is it in rural Normandie.  The nearest 'major' area of connubration is Villedieu or Vire or somewhere like that.  But the inhabitants of the area where it is planned are numbered in hundreds not thousands.

[chris pp]

Couple of quick points as I'm "ducking in and out" a bit today.

The minimum distance from a dwelling has been set at not less than 500 metres, so 200 metres is out of the question.

There should have been a pilot study where the wind speed, quantity throughout the year etc have been measured, it's not a case of this looks like a nice spot, let's whack it here.

It really doesn't matter if France or any other Country produces excess electricity and sells it to another Country, that's what happens all the time with oil and gas, what matters is that the production is the least harmful that we are capable of and adds to the existing means that are in use.

Chris

[powerdesal]

This will no doubt upset some people but,.........wind powered generators are, quite frankly, a waste of time, effort and good countryside. They cost more in energy terms to build and install than they will ever repay. They need to be backed up permanently with other generating sources, usually thermal or nuclear because, quite simply, they only generate when the wind is blowing in a relatively narrow band of wind speed. Too slow and they dont work, too fast and they have to be shutdown to protect them. During those times you still need power so its back to thermal/nuclear ( or hydro if you have it)

They are built as a 'sop' to green consciences, usually with massive grants of taxpayers money. They are a PR stunt to make society feel better.

now I will get back in my box.

ps. Yes Llwyncelyn, EDF do export power to UK.

pps. My house is in Le Chefresne.

[Ciel Bleu]

I'm also very interested in where wind farms might spring up, as we're planning to buy on the Manche/Calvados boundary not a million miles away from Percy. I've been doing a little googling and found this website:

http://www.basse-normandie.ademe.fr/servlet/KBaseShow?m=3&cid=9981&catid=10107

I've already seen a small goup of 'eoliennes' near St Martin des Besaces not far from the A84 in Calvados, and this summer we saw lots in the Aude in SW France.

I actually think that they're quite pleasant to look at and as someone said, I'd prefer these on the horizon to pylons.

I have also stood directly beneath  the single eolienne (although there could be more there now) which is between Gavray and Villedieu les Poeles - it was turning quite rapidly but was only making a small amount of noise. 

The above website has answered lots of my queries about them, but there are only detailed maps of where they might be built in Calvados, and much sketchier details about Manche.

 

 

[Llwyncelyn]

Dear Steve when you are next over we must meet up at the Brocante bar in Les Chefresne.  Saw Christian after lunch today and he too had heard about the wind farms.  Was going to conduct his own investigation.........................

 

regards

 

 

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Ciel Bleu"]I have also stood directly beneath  the single eolienne (although there could be more there now) which is between Gavray and Villedieu les Poeles - it was turning quite rapidly but was only making a small amount of noise. [/quote]

There's still just the one - apparently it's a mid-sized éolienne... they come bigger than that!

I've stood underneath it when it has been going around quite fast. Yes, there's a mechanical hum. And the blades do make a swooshing noise. But then, the sound of a car going past on the adjacent road drowns out both noises. No decapitated (or otherwise incapacitated) birds were found nearby because, investigative souls that we are, we looked. This is often put forward as another reason that éoliennes are a bad thing.  Of course, if there are 20+ of them in an area, perhaps they do have a negative effect on the bird population.

I wouldn't want one right alongside my house because apart from any sound, that would be quite intimidating as they're big! but apart from that, I think they're beautiful and I'd be quite happy to have some in sight, even marching along the Juvigny-le-Tertre / Reffuveille ridge, which we overlook and is a possibility which is under discussion. The inhabitants of Juvigny are considerably less enthusiastic though. Around here, people are anti-nuclear, anti-pylon, anti-éolienne... no one seems to have detached themselves from the EDF grid as far as I know. [:P]

[quote user="Llwyncelyn"]Again if we are to witness the THT from

Flaminville down to Bretagne that seemingly suggests that there is

surplus energy? I am not an expert (but feel sure Will can comment) but

think that EDF supply energy to the UK.  Thus there is lots of it

about?  And they are building another nuclear reactor generation plant

at Flaminville. [/quote]

The new reactor at Flamanville (groundwork has started with before the planning permission has been granted, shock, horror) is to generate additional power which France can sell to Spain. Or that was the proposal a couple of years ago and I haven't heard that it has changed. This ususally prompts the question: why not build the reactor nearer to Spain? Because Manche already has the "reactor farm", expertise and wants the jobs, I suppose.

[Dick Smith]

Cat, your post made me smile at the thought of queues of people anti-pylon, powerstation, nuclear, wind generator, all buying their electrical goods this Christmas...

[Catalpa]

Exactly. [:D]

Just off on patrol now to switch off all the lights and radios in rooms we are not sitting in at the moment...[Www]

[Dick Smith]

Keeps you warm when the heating goes off!

[Coco]

I haven't heard about this at all but would certainly be a lot happier to see an eolienne on the horizon than a THT pylon.  Personally I love to see the one at Gavray and the three near St Martin.  I think they're nearly as endearing as the old fashioned windmills but I don't think they look quite so attractive when there are hundreds of them clumped together.  Like Catalpa, I wouldn't want one right in my back garden but I would certainly have no objection to being able to see one from my house. We're fairly close to the A84/Pont Farcy so perhaps we'll be seeing them whenever we head off to Vire/Villedieu but I shan't worry.

[Clair]

There has been talk about these in our area recently. La Dépêche ran this article about it:

[quote]LOT - ENERGIE. LE MAIRE DE LABASTIDE-DU-HAUT-MONT DÉVOILE UN PROJET INNOVANT.

Le premier parc éolien du Lot dans le Ségala

Une exposition publique

sur un projet de trois éoliennes s'est tenue samedi dernier à la salle

du foyer rural de Labastide-du-Haut-Mont et Dominique Canal, maire de

la commune, a bien voulu nous accorder un entretien sur ce projet

innovant.

• Comment ce projet de parc éolien a-t-il vu le jour ? L'entreprise
  Gamesa Energie France, dont le métier est de développer, construire et
  exploiter des parcs éoliens dans le monde entier, a contacté la mairie
  de Labastide-du-Haut-Mont en exposant le projet qui pouvait être
  réalisé sur notre commune.
• Comment ont réagi les habitants ? Après
  discussion au conseil municipal, nous avons accepté. Nous avons été
  séduits par cette idée et le feu vert a été donné. Les habitants ont
  été globalement favorables.

«BIEN ACCUEILLI PAR LES HABITANTS»

• En quoi ce projet de trois éoliennes constitue-t-il un atout pour votre commune ? D'abord,
  l'énergie éolienne est renouvelable. Et puis, vu la situation
  géographique singulière de notre commune qui constitue le point
  culminant du département, nous avons surtout la chance d'accueillir le
  premier projet de parc éolien dans le Lot.
• Quel est l'intérêt des éoliennes ? D'abord, le bruit est maîtrisé : au pied d'une éolienne, le niveau sonore est égal à celui d'une conversation. Les
  études menées montrent que les éoliennes qui sont insérées
  convenablement dans leur environnement permettent de préserver les
  espèces présentes dans la faune et construisent un nouveau paysage.Tout cela a été bien accueilli par les habitants.
• Quelle est la prochaine étape ? C'est
  le dépôt de la demande de permis de construire fin 2006 puis son
  instruction et une enquête publique conduite courant 2008.Une étude du raccordement électrique et l'engagement des travaux précèderont une mise en service programmée en 2009.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ERIC CABROL, CHEF DE PROJET DU PROCHAIN PARC ÉOLIEN DE LASBASTIDE-DU-HAUT-MONT. 

« Mise en service prévue en 2009 »

Le maire de Labastide-du-Haut-Mont nous a dévoilé en exclusivité les premières lignes du projet de parc éolien sur la commune. Nous nous sommes également entretenus avec le chef de projet, Eric Cabrol, sur cet ambitieux chantier.

• Quels sont les principaux atouts du projet retenu pour ce parc éolien ? C'est
  un projet innovant puisqu'il s'agira du premier parc éolien lotois.
  Puissant de 6 mégawatts, le parc devrait générer une production
  électrique annuelle de 13 200 mégawatts/heure. Cela correspond à la
  consommation annuelle de plus de 15 000 personnes. Ensuite, cela
  permettra d'éviter des émissions de CO², plus de 3 800 tonnes par an.
  Enfin, le parc éolien aura des retombées en termes d'activité
  économique et de fiscalité locale.
• Pourriez-vous en quelques mots nous dire ce qu'est une éolienne ? Dotée
  d'une puissance de 2 mégawatts, l'éolienne est composée d'une tour
  haute de 78 m et de pales longues de 45m qui font entre 9 et 19 tours
  par minute, ce qui représente un tour toutes les 3 secondes.
• Comment fonctionneront les trois éoliennes prévues dans le projet que vous avez conçu ? Les
  éoliennes reprennent le principe des moulins d'antan et utilisent la
  force du vent pour produire une énergie électrique propre, sûre et
  renouvelable.
• Qu'avez-vous réalisé jusqu'à présent ? Une
  série d'études préalables sur le vent puis des analyses paysagères et
  environnementales. Pendant cette phase, tous les acteurs locaux ont été
  informés de l'évolution du projet. Ensuite des cartes, des plans et des
  photomontages ont été présentés aux acteurs locaux et l'étude d'impact
  a été finalisée.
• Quand ce parc éolien sera-t-il mis en service ? Courant
  2009, une fois que l'instruction du permis de construire, l'enquête
  publique, l'étude du raccordement électrique et l'engagement des
  travaux auront été effectués.[/quote]

We received a leaflet with the post inviting us to an exhibition to explain the proposal, but the guy(s) doint the talk had not arrived 30mn after the supposed start time, so we did not stay...

The village in question is the highest point in the Lot at 783m.

[Llwyncelyn]

Dear Coco you should worry there are going to be 250 of them.........only kidding...........but where you have ten then like any family they tend to grow.

I like other contributors have my doubts both ecological and political over these windmills.  I can understand well understand in built up connubations but Coco look around you where are the major areas of population?  Pont Farcy say Tessy say Domjean.............................say Montabot...........say Villebaudon. say Fervaches....................

 

[Pommier]

But they`re still surely preferable to THT pylons?

[Will]

Wind energy is also being discussed here http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/797152/ShowPost.aspx.

The French seem very naive in their apparent rush to support wind energy instead of any other (aside from nuclear, but that's another issue altogether). Wind farms can seldom be sited anywhere near where the electricity is actually needed, so they breed even more of the dreaded transmission lines. They also take up a very large area - in theory the land between the turbines can still be used for agriculture but in most cases, safety and security considrations prevent this. The technology is improving all the time, and taking costs on an even basis, wind energy is probably currently competitive with conventional generation, but of course, unlike coal, oil, gas or nuclear (or even hydro) full output is far from constantly available.

Yes, eolienne has a lot going for it in many respects, but there are still a lot of negatives as well.

For the record, a lot of people in the industry (and government) are looking at coal with renewed interest, but new clean coal technologies rather than the old dirty fossil-fuelled power stations.

[Catalpa]

Aesthetically and from a health point of view (probably) yes, of course they're preferable. Well... to me, anyway. But much as I like them, comparing them to pylons is a bit apple vs orange. I think it is difficult to find renewable energy information in which one can be totally confident there are no axes being ground but the muttering seems to be that windfarms aren't ever going to be more than a very small answer to our growing electricity needs. Someone who is involved in allocating venture capital for renewable energy projects told me that if the whole of the UK had offshore turbines 10-deep around the entire coastline, the UK would just about keep up with the growth in energy needs year on year. That it wouldn't make a dent in actual present-day electricity requirements. I think he's someone who has done his homework and if he doesn't think éoliennes are the way forward on a large scale, I'm inclined to believe him. He also says that at the moment cost of manufacturing them and providing the infrastructure they need way outstrips what they can deliver in electricity in their lifetime.

On the other hand, I'm sure someone with access to a range of statistics could - on paper - prove him wrong. [:D]

Edit:

and having just seen your post, Will, you may be that person. [kiss]

and Edit2:

thanks for the link to the other discussion which I'd missed till now. [kiss][kiss]

[Will]

Catalpa, yes, you are quite right about the difficulty of finding sensible statistics; there are indeed a lot of vested interests. Being involved in business publishing, and currently deeply involved in power generation, I do get a lot of statistics thrown at me, but there is mostly no way of knowing which are reliable and which are, shall we say, selective. I'm not the person to give a categoric answer, but I do think I can remain calm and unbiased on these issues.

Wind generation on a commercial scale is still a fairly new and developing technology. Like so many technologies things are changing all the time, in so far as efficiency and capability is increasing while the production costs are coming down, so many of the figures that are available for past performance will not necessarily be representative of the present situation.

Having said that, I would be inclined to go along with what your contact says. I very much doubt if wind power will ever be able to provide a major portion of our needs. Even in Denmark, the world leader, which is well placed to use wind energy, wind's contribution to the national requirement seems to have peaked at 23%. Germany has by far the largest number of wind turbines and they contribute a mere 6% to the national requirement.

Wind, and other renewables, will no doubt have a part to play in conjunction with other sources of power. But I think that the most sensible thing to do would be to cut consumption by reducing waste - and this includes such things as transmission losses which tend to be overlooked by promoters of particular energy sources (and I include things such as nuclear and hydro power in this, as well as wind).

[powerdesal]

To those who prefer wind generators to "pylons", consider this:

All power generated at a distance from the demand (consumers) has to be sent there, it can be via underground cables or overhead lines. This is equally true whether the generation is by wind, thermal, nuclear or hydro. Overheads are the cheapest option by a very long way and are therefore the method of choice in open countryside.

It follows from the above that the erection of 'wind farms' will not reduce the use of transmission lines on "pylons". The net result will in fact be more skyline structures, not less.