Vide-greniers.org in trouble....

[Dog]

Got the following email today seems they have been copying stuff from other websites and now under threat of closure which is a shame as they offer a very useful service.

Bonjour à tous,

Je vous écris aujourd'hui car le site est en danger...

Si vous connaissez des avocats compétents dans les affaires liées à Internet et de propriété intellectuelle, envoyez moi leurs coordonnées.

En quelques mots : courant mai, j'ai reçu un courrier d'une société d'avocats qui défend son client, éditeur d'un guide des vide-greniers quelque part en France et qui m'apprend qu'un internaute a recopié intégralement ce guide sur mon site. Depuis mon écran en Alsace, j'ignorais qu'un internaute avait copié des informations de ce guide. Ils m'ont donc sommé de faire le nettoyage. De bonne foi, j'ai supprimé les manifestations et répondu par courrier que dans le doute, sans vérifier leurs dires, j'ai effectué le nécessaire.

Il y a une semaine, nouveau courrier de leur part, ils m'annoncent qu'il me poursuivent et me somment de payer 12000€ à leur client pour réparation (perte d'annonceurs dans leur guide et perte de clientèle)... et qu'ils vont saisir le tribunal à ce sujet.

Donc, Help! Si vous connaissez ou si vous êtes des avocats compétents dans ce domaine de propriété intellectuelle (et Internet) ou si vous pouvez me conseiller, c'est bienvenu. Si vous êtes capables de m'aider, je vous transmettrai plus d'éléments (nos échanges de courrier...).

Sinon coté site, avec l'été, je pense consacrer un peu plus de temps à l'amélioration de l'agenda du site pour prendre en compte tous les cas de figure.

L'annuaire de sites de vide-greniers.org est à présent pleinement fonctionnel http://vide-greniers.org/annuaire.php .

Si vous possédez un site WEB et qu'il a sa place dans une des rubriques de cet annuaire, vous pouvez le soumettre.

L'annuaire porte principalement sur les sites :

d'associations

de collections en tout genre

de tourisme, d'offices de tourisme

des villages et villes

de vide-greniers

d'antiquités, rénovation

Pour rappel : vous devez pouvoir réaliser un lien retour vers vide-greniers.org

Merci...

[Dick Smith]

I think they've probably got him by the valseuses, which is sad, because I didn't think that was a money-making site. Shows how careful you have to be - how often do you find, when Googling a topic, that the same text appears on website after website? Someone's playing fast and loose there, as well.

[Owens88]

Apologies in advance. I am going to be very 'Brit' about this.

1) My French is not good enough to reliably discern; was the 'lifted' part done with attribution or not ?

If not then only a primary school kid should expect to get away unscathed. Web pages are as much an intellectual property as a book or a magazine.

2) If the site is truly a 'not for profit' site by definition (probably meaning it makes no charges) as opposed to a site that makes no profit (most! smile) then an apology, and promise not to do it again, is normal and sufficient to head off the legals.

BUT let me stress I am not in France or knowledgebale in French Law. I'd take the case very public if it ran against the principles above though.

 

 

[Mpprh]

Hi

This is a woolly area ?

I'm no expert in this, but do have a lot of info culled from various sources on my site.

Many who have websites (including those for B&B or gites) include local information that may well appear on paid directories elsewhere.

I rather think that vide greniers, markets, etc. have to have a permit and the information is probably published by the French government. So it would be public knowledge ?

On the other hand, if these people have copied the information verbatim from a paying site, and the paying site can prove the lost revenue, there just may be a case.

More likely, it is just a frightener ?

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

[Coco]

[quote]I think they've probably got him by the valseuses, which is sad, because I didn't think that was a money-making site. Shows how careful you have to be - how often do you find, when Googling a topic, t...[/quote]

....know what you mean Dick.  I've noticed on one of the B&B hosting sites that another B&B, not a million miles from me, has lifted my text more or less word for word and put it on their own site!!!

 

Sorry, totally off topic I know.

[Mpprh]

Hi

the reason I'm interested is ........

A couple of years ago, I tried to find a link for markets in Languedoc. And couldn't find one. So over 3 months, each time I was on the net I searched on languedoc markets, herault markets, gard markets, lozere markets, france markets, world markets, tourist office markets, gites markets, chambres hotes markets, + many many variations including market, marche, marches etc. I then posted the list on various forums (including this one)  and said "know any more ? Any errors ?". I was surprised that some tiny villages have a market albeit with only 1 stall, so I included them.

I built up a database of nearly 600 markets in Languedoc. For interest I included major markets within reach over the border in Provence, Rousillon, Spain, etc

I also added a couple of spurious towns !

Eventually I published the list. You can see it here : http://www.the-languedoc-page.com/languedoc-markets.htm

You can also see it here :

http://www.languedoc-france.info/list_markets.htm
http://www.france4families.com/Languedoc/RegionsLanguedocMarkets.htm
And on a couple of others.
And one removed it when I asked for a link back to me !

How do I know it is copied ? The spurious towns !

They've just copied my hard work ?
But I copied other stuff. So what, exactly is the copyright position ?

Peter

[Anton Redman]

I believe anybody who writes or reproduces their own work on a web page without a very clear statement that they wish to retain their interlectual property rights and that it is expressly forbidden to reproduce the information else where without obtaining clearence from the creators of the material has surrendered their rights.

Same argument as writing to a newspaper and then trying to sue when they edit your words

[Owens88]

Anton

I am not a lawyer but I question your advice. You are comparing the works that somebody 'publishes' on their web-site to a letter written to an open forum (the letters page on a newspaper).

Sureloy the comparison is between 'publishing ' on your own web site and 'publishing' in the newspaper. Newspapers regularly take people to court for ripping off their material. (NB an attributed quote is a different thing).

However the bit about an 'assertion of rights' probably strengthens the case for the publisher.

 

[Anton Redman]

Owen88 - Agree broadly with the thrust of your argument but if I post on for instance 'Living France' or write to the London Times without a clear statement that I retain copyright despite the relatively recent changes in Europen Intellectual Property Law  I think I loose the right to complain about my comments appearing elsewhere. 

If on the other hand I produced the website and the information is reproduced else where with out payment or acknowledgement of ownership then there is clear breach. The whole thing is a can of worms, early in UK case law on copyright it was successfully argued that railway timetables did involve intellectual input whereas the production of logerythms did not. 

[Loiseau]

They've just copied my hard work ?
But I copied other stuff. So what, exactly is the copyright position ?
----------------------------------------------------------

Peter, when you were compiling your list of markets surely you just looked up the day of the week for each market and added it to your list?   You could have rung each tourist office, or  mairie for the same information.  It couldn't be copyright, surely?  It's just a fact. 
But when you have researched and created a list, and somebody lifts the whole lot from your page, without acknowledgement it seems to me that that is a different story. 

I have compiled a load of Vendée-related links (with a few of my own comments alongside) on my website, and I have seen them copied-and-pasted into one or two other sites.  I haven't said anything, as usually the sites have already made a link to mine from some other page.

However, I once found a lyrical description of Les Sables-d'Olonne on somebody's holiday-letting site.  It did have a familiar ring to it, and when I checked I found it was my own description, verbatim, from my book!  No acknowledgement, no recommendation, no link...
So I did send the owners a stiff email, and they have now withdrawn it.
Had they contacted me first to ask permission and offered a little plug for my book in exchange, then I would certainly have agreed.

Angela

www.the-vendee.co.uk

[Owens88]

Anton

Indeed we seem to agree. I regard a posting to Living France as comparable as a letter to the Times; intended for publication within the context.

Whereas Living France, or the Times, or the people who publish information (whether creative or researched) on their web-site deserve some protection form outright copying, especially without atribution.

[Craig McGinty]

Hi

Although I am sympathetic with the position the vide-greniers site finds itself in, as it does provide a valuable service, ultimately you can't look to republish content without getting permission.

There is a good chance the original author would have been delighted to allow their work to be reproduced as long as it was given proper attribution.

But seeking it afterwards, or worse being found with it on your site really is bad form.

And copyright is copyright when it comes down to it. If you have produced just a one page website it is considered your intellectual property and there is not really a need to place a copyright notice on it, the act of publishing it protects you.

That is the slight difference with a letters page or a messageboard, the newspaper or site is publishing it so has the responsibility.

That's why when people copy and paste full articles onto a messageboard problems can occur. A short quoted paragraph and then link across to the full article is best.

And just a quick heads-up to those who provide information sites etc. I've noticed recently a couple of my book reviews being copied and then new Amazon links being put into them so that any sales go to the 'thief'.

Finally a useful site to track down if your words are being used elsewhere is:

http://www.copyscape.com/

All the best

Craig

http://www.thisfrenchlife.com

[Dog]

Copyright is worthless unless you are prepared to do something about its contravention.

meanwhile it would seem Vide-greniers is attributing its information to a person and hopefully will carry on giving a useful service.

[pinkfluff<P>Big Wet Drops and Lots of Them, Are a Sure Sign of Rain!<P>]

Does anyone know if they copied the information from a similar site because this site does not work and it was handy. so if there is another similar it would be nice to know of it  THANKS

[Debra]

[quote]Does anyone know if they copied the information from a similar site because this site does not work and it was handy. so if there is another similar it would be nice to know of it THANKS[/quote]

if this is the site: http://vide-greniers.org/ then I can still get into it, pinkfluff.  It seems to be working ok.

[0The Plan ManAll the best,<br><br>StewartddMMyyyy0Falseen-USAll the best,<br><br>StewartTrue]

Quite a while ago my website was visited by a spider sent by an organisation that compiled copyrighted material. It was aimed at teachers and lecturers to automatically compare student submissions with stuf posted on the internet to sniff out blatant plagiarisers. Regrettably I forget the details - has anyone heard of such a tool, and whether or not it can be used to track the copying verbatim of one's work?

[Debra]

The Open University have such a tool, but I don't know what it is - maybe you could ask them?