SaligoBay Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 [quote user="Dick Smith"](And SB the word for doing something twelve times is either 'dozening', [/quote]I dozened go to the cinema this week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 No, I didden go pitchers s'week.Or I went pitchers dozens. Innit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 [quote user="Dick Smith"]What REALLY bugs me is people who say di-sect instead of diss-ect. There are two perfectly good words, dissect and bisect, but they are now conflated into one meaningless portmanteau word. [/quote]Now you've reminded me of another hate, Dick. Desiccated (note correct spelling) and decimated mean, respectively, dried out and reduced by one tenth. Neither of them means 'massacred' or anything similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted September 19, 2006 Author Share Posted September 19, 2006 Do you think theres a market for those rubber bricks to throw at the television, here ?? [:D][:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Why settle for rubber ones? I'd like to see repeated misuse of language become a hanging offence, or at least the reintroduction of the stocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spongebob Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 [quote user="Will "]Why settle for rubber ones? I'd like to see repeated misuse of language become a hanging offence, or at least the reintroduction of the stocks.[/quote]"Repeated misuse" seems to lead to a change in language.As an example, look at the words "assume" and "presume".NOW, the Concise Oxford gives "assume" as meaning " to take as being true, for purposes of argument, or action".It gives "presume" as meaning " to suppose to be undoubtedly true, take for granted".Very similar?HOWEVER, a VERY old dictionary that belonged to my grandad, gives the meaning of presume" as to take unto oneself something of which one is not worthy, to be presumptious".Since Stanley misued "presume" it seems to have entered common usage as meaning JUST what he wanted it to.Spongebob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 [quote user="Spongebob"]HOWEVER, a VERY old dictionary that belonged to my grandad, gives the meaning of presume" as to take unto oneself something of which one is not worthy, to be presumptious".Since Stanley misued "presume" it seems to have entered common usage as meaning JUST what he wanted it to.[/quote]Now you're confusing me, Spongebob - I think you mean this is the definition of "assume", don't you? I have to confess that I use "assume" in both the old and modern senses. [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Yes, I take the point - I quite agree that language evolves, if it didn't we'd probably all be speaking in Latin (or Norman French). But when there are clear and sensible rules, and words that mean exactly what we want them to, it's my belief that misuse of grammar and words shows ignorance rather than evolution, and as such should not be encouraged. For example I would hate to see 'two times' become the norm rather than the much more elegant and concise 'twice'. There is also the distinction between spoken and written language, where what is acceptable in the former may be less so in the latter, but eventually, possibly due to becoming familiar through written dialogue, it is taken into more formal language. I wonder what Dick has to say on evolution (or not) of language? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 What does a chimp know about evolution? I think "two times" is okay as long as it is used properly, as in "two times table" and nowhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Anyone see the series on BBC2 last year where the public were asked to help update the OED?? It was fun, and quite interesting to learn how "old" some supposedly recent changes in use of language actually are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I'm afraid we don't get BBC2. What sort of thing are you talking about? And another thing - does it peeve anyone that I tend to post on the forum as if I were speaking rather than writing formally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimportequoi Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 One time or two times is American English, once and twice British English, which is probably why the former is becoming more common now. BTW, one of my French students used one of my most hated cliché 'At the end of the day' during a lesson and I was horrified. He said during international meetings the Dutch and Spanish participants used it a lot. I said it was best avoided and mainly used by the less intelligent British professional footballers/managers/punter. He asked for an alternative, I don't think you need to replace it with anything, it is just a useless phrase. Has anyone got any suggestions? Dick??Cassis, no, I think the way you write is charming, I think most people post what they would say rather than writing formally on a forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 In the end, in the final analysis, when all's said and done, there is no alternative to "At the end of the day".Anybody listened to my songs yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted September 19, 2006 Author Share Posted September 19, 2006 SusanaAH - What about 'all things considered' or 'taking everything into account' perhaps that is just as bad? At the end of the day sounds like something in a funeral service (and with some football managers, it is !)[;-)][;-)]Yes I did see the program about how certain words came into common usage, but more memorable for me was Stephen Fry talking about the English language, to Jonathan Ross I think. Inspirational ! I remember posting about it at the time and would you believe it, Dick missed it !Cassis, most of the time I'm afraid I write as I speak too.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Cassis, it was a series over about 6 episodes where the public were asked to identify the earliest possible use of certain words, phrases and expressions, and provide factual evidence to support their claims, in order that the OED could be updated. Particularly memorable for providing my advanced ESOL class with the opportunity to learn the meaning and origin of the phrase "something for the weekend" and for me videoing the following week's episode with the intention of using it in a lesson, only to discover that it was dedicated, in large part, to a piece by Germaine Greer on the origins of the "c" word.[:$](about 16th century IIRC!)RH I remember the Stephen Fry interview on JR. I think SF is brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missy Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 >>> ....... There are two perfectly good words, dissect and bisect, but they are now conflated into one meaningless portmanteau word. .....<<<<<Dick, sorry to correct my language, the correct spelling is porte-manteau (porte from porter : to carry and manteau : a coat) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Nice try, but no cigar - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PortmanteauOf course language evolves, all of the time. I'm not worried about borrowings or coinings or the Great European Vowel Shift, I am concerned that functionality or nuance of meaning is lost through weakening verbs or the loss of 'difficult' words or constructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Touché!Stephen Fry is on the telly (BBC2) right now. I met him once, in Simpsons of Picadilly, we were both buying shirts (that's when it was a shop, not a tea room). Needless to say, his were rather bigger, and dearer, than mine.I have just had a totally surreal language experience, having (in England) met a Frenchman who is trying to sell new kitchens to English customers, and whose English is worse than my French (and that's bad, believe me). Once we had established that he was French (though at first I thought he was Spanish - he did come from the SW and had a rather odd accent) and that I lived in Normandy, and that we do rather need a new kitchen in our English maison secondaire, we got on rather well chatting in French about German kitchens in England. That's despite his products being crap, me not liking the way his company does business, and the fact that he would have difficulty selling room heaters to Eskimos. As I am definitely in the minority in that part of West Sussex in speaking any reasonable amount of French, however poorly, I don't reckon much to his chances. Apparently he had been working in Portugal but lost out because his English was not good enough, so he decided to come to England, get a job, so he could become perfect in English. You have to admire him, and also admire the English system that makes this possible. Imagine any English person who came to France talking like the proverbial vache espagnole landing a job like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fulcrum Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 [quote user="Will "] Imagine any English person who came to France talking like the proverbial vache espagnole landing a job like that.[/quote]I wish that most French people would understand yhat as a rule we are more tollerant in UK for people coming there and not knowing the language.I was in central London a few years ago and a French couple came up to me to ask directions. I sensed that they were French and even though my French was crap I tried to direct them in French. They were very appreciative that I knew any French but I wonder if the even appreciated how much effort I had put into speaking the small amount of French that I had used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spongebob Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 [quote user="Cassis"][quote user="Spongebob"]HOWEVER, a VERY old dictionary that belonged to my grandad, gives the meaning of presume" as to take unto oneself something of which one is not worthy, to be presumptious".Since Stanley misued "presume" it seems to have entered common usage as meaning JUST what he wanted it to.[/quote]Now you're confusing me, Spongebob - I think you mean this is the definition of "assume", don't you? I have to confess that I use "assume" in both the old and modern senses. [:)][/quote]Nope. Stanley was supposed to have said, "Dr Livingstone, I PRESUME?", (sorry for any miss-spelling of his name).In those days, according to my grandad's dictionary, he ought to have used "assume", ........unless he WAS being presumptious, and taking on himself something of which he was not worthy. Not, I ASSUME what HE meant, at all[;-)]Spongebob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 presume 1375, "to take upon oneself, to take liberty," also "to take for granted, presuppose" (1377), from O.Fr. presumer (12c.), from L. præsumere (see presumption). Presumptive is recorded from 1561. The heir presumptive (1628) is "presumed" to be the heir if the heir apparent is unavailable.assume 1436, "to receive up into heaven" (especially of the Virgin Mary, e.g. Feast of the Assumption, celebrated Aug. 15, attested from 1297), from L. assumere "to take up," from ad- "to, up" + sumere "to take," from sub "under" + emere "to take" (see exempt). Early pp. was assumpt. Meaning "to suppose" is first recorded 1598. In rhetorical usage, assume expresses what the assumer postulates, often as a confessed hypothesis; presume expresses what the presumer really believes.So it looks like Stanley could have been correct in his usage, in that it predates him by several centuries. Did you know he was sent on that mission by J. Gordon Bennett?Not sure if this clarifies matters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 [quote user="Cassis"]So it looks like Stanley could have been correct in his usage, in that it predates him by several centuries. Did you know he was sent on that mission by J. Gordon Bennett?Not sure if this clarifies matters! [/quote]Didn't know that. Did you know that J. Gordon Sinclair starred in Gregory's Girl?My current pet hate is 'I turned around and said....' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Makes you wonder why these people spend all their time with their backs towards whoever is speaking to them. Unless what thery actually do is to spin on the spot several times before replying, which I guess could be quite entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 [quote user="Mark"]Didn't know that. Did you know that J. Gordon Sinclair starred in Gregory's Girl?[/quote]Ooh - Clare Grogan! [img]http://www.penaltyking.com/images/cast/claregrogan.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Oh how I've yearned over the years to be Mr Grogan.Can't concentrate on work now Phil - and you know how conscientious I try to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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