HMRC residence and remitance

[lindal1000]

Just doing my UK tax return for end of October, and it looks like they have changed the forms and requirements for deciding if you are tax resident or not. The guidance notes stretch to 90+ pages and I can't say it made it any clearer. I did get the impression that you have to be very careful with questions such as how many days were you in the UK last year and how many ties do you have to the UK. In the end I took a guess as my UK income is well below the current personal allowance. Anyone got any thoughts or advice?

[Patf]

Sounds like you're filling in paper forms, Linda. The online declaration, which we complete,  isn't due until the end of January, and I haven't looked yet to see if they ask for the information you mention.

There are a few people on here who are more expert than me, no doubt they will comment soon.

[Hereford]

Did our UK tax return online on 7th April (!!), got the refund on 11th.  We always do it that early.  Have no recollection of any questions re time in Uk or ties to it.  Sounds more like the form that one fills in when first asking for non-resident status (that goes via French tax office).

[tinabee]

A new UK statutory residence test was introduced in December 2013 - you can go through it here to get the gist of the new rules

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/international/rdr3.pdf

[lindal1000]

Yes I was doing a paper one but only because I didn't want to pay for special software needed to do the online one if you are an overseas resident. As I say, the form is a new one and I didn't have to do it last year. Thanks for the link Tinabee, but the document is 105 pages long, which was the problem I was having yesterday..ie: trying to understand the gist of the rules!

[Hereford]

Still do not understand this. You do not need any special software to do an ordinary UK tax return online. I am a qualified accountant and when working (in the UK) we used special software but since retirement we just use the Inland Revenue website. So long as you are "registered" to do tax returns online you just go to the website and do it!

One thing I do know: the basic UK tax return does not ask for any details of when you were in the UK or ties thereto. Why would it? 

Edit: PS    You do not need the software even if an overseas resident. I know that the HMRC site says you must enter a valid UK postcode but I and others have been assured (by HMRC staff) that ANY postcode will do - just do not tick the box for a change of address. We always put the postcode for a property we own in the UK but if we did not still own it we would put it anyway... It is apparently OK to put, say. the Town Hall or post office where you used to live.  We state on the last page of "notes" that we are overseas and only part of our income is taxable in the UK so we are not hiding what we do at all.

[lindal1000]

To an extent I agree and for the past few years I did exactly that, but it wouldn't allow me to claim back the tax I had paid on bank interest and I was told I needed to submit some supplementary pages which were not available online. This is the first time I have had to fill them in. I also used the notes pages in the past but apparently they are never read.

The online form does say if you are not a UK resident you shouldn't use the form and if you do a paper copy they direct you to the residency and remittance form. This is the first year my UK tax form has been more complicated than my French one

[Patf]

As Hereford says, I don't know what you mean about expensive software to complete the tax return online.

I can't remember now how we got started, but we certainly didn't pay anything for it.

Linda, when you moved here did you complete the form which was sent to your tax office in the UK, via your tax office here, saying that you are now resident in France?

[lindal1000]

Yes I did Patf. Actually the software is not that expensive but I just didn't want to buy it. I might as well make HMRC work for their money. As I said in the past I have always just bypassed the post code question on the Uk tax form online and it has worked, but they have never refunded me the tax paid on my bank interest. There was a little more of it this year so I thought I'd better make sure I got it back so that I can pay it out again in France

[tinabee]

I use form R43 every year to reclaim tax already paid on savings interest, it seems to work pretty well

http://search2.hmrc.gov.uk/kb5/hmrc/forms/view.page?record=8hObC1-9L-o&formId=7356

[lindal1000]

Thanks tenable but it says you can't use the form if you have to file a self assessment form..and I have been told by HMRC that I must file self assessment forms.

Just found this on HMRC website

You can file the main tax return form SA100 online using HMRC free software or commercial software, but please note that you need to use commercial software to file supplementary form SA109 'Residence, remittance basis, etc' online.

[andyh4]

quote user="Hereford"

One thing I do know: the basic UK tax return does not ask for any details of when you were in the UK or ties thereto. Why would it? 

end quote

No, but if you are resident outside the UK you are required to fill in additional forms, one of which does (or at least did) require you to fill in the number of days spent in the UK.

I would have thought an accountant would know that, but clearly your clientele must have been UK based only

[Hereford]

Yes indeed all our clients were UK based. Now we are retired however we are not.  We have been in France for 12 years and have had a tax refund each year via the simple online tax return. Our tax return always states (in the notes at the end) that we are not in the UK - indeed the address they send the "you are required to send a SA form" is sent to France. 

One year, recently, the tax refund did not arrive within a few days so I telephoned the tax office and they said that their file showed I had been randomly chosen for a further check. If all was well the refund would arrive within three weeks - it did.  I discussed with the HMRC staff member our status and there was no problem about what we were doing.

Could the OP please post the name of the form she is being asked to complete and it's reference? Then I can look it up. Thanks.

Edit. I can see a form/notes RDR1 on HMRC website. This seems to be mostly about whether the UK will/want to say that someone IS a UK taxpayer e.g. if they have worked in the UK during the year. In those circumstances it is not surprising that additional info is needed,   The OP seemed to be asking about a basic SA form whereas this form is quite different and would be in addition to that.

[lindal1000]

I have always had a refund in the past but just not of the tax paid on interest. I do have small amounts of income from a number of different sources..hence the need to fill in countless supplemental pages.

It does seem that there have been some changes this year.

From 6 April 2013 the rules that determine if someone is resident in the UK for tax purposes have been put on a statutory basis. These rules are known as the Statutory Residence Test (SRT). For the majority of people whether or not they are resident for tax purposes is quite straightforward under the test and their position will not change. For those with complex circumstances the SRT will provide more certainty about their residence status.

To help you understand your tax residence status HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) have launched an on-line tax residence indicator. This residence indicator will give you an indication of your tax residence status after answering a few straightforward questions such as how many days you spent in the UK, where you have a home and if you have family ties.

[kizpip]

We completed our first UK tax return earlier in the year which has already been processed and tax refunded. All we filled in on the 'Residence, remittance basis' form were questions 1, 9 and 10. I think the tax adviser on the phone told me that it didn't really relate to us - more for people born outside the UK.

[tinabee]

If you have not been repaid tax paid on interest in previous years it might be worth submitting R43 forms , it looks like you can go back to the 2008/09 tax year (there is a different form for each tax year)

[Patf]

The present govt. seem to be considering limiting concessions to people living abroad - eg there was talk of scrapping the winter fuel allowance for expats.

Maybe they're doing some research to work out numbers and how much they would save.

[Hereford]

The original question asked for advice as well as comments.  One thing I would certainly advise is not to "guess" the time/days you were in the Uk. It is clearly important and can be worked out from diary and ferry or plane tickets surely? 

[Rabbie]

It always used to be the case that if you wanted to avoid paying UK tax you were only allowed to spend a very limited number of days in the UK each tax year. I don't know if this is still the case but this may be the reason they want to know this.

[lindal1000]

Goodness Hereford.. I haven't kept any accurate records of where I was last week let alone last year! I know roughly when I went back and why but as to having any tickets etc.. If HMRC want to really check as to whether I really was there 21 of 22 days then they are more than welcome .

[Daft Doctor]

Hi, we are French tax resident but as we have UK property income we have to file a self-assessment return. We always fill in the residence and remittance pages, as our small amount of UK bank interest is repaid as a deduction from our UK tax bill rather than a direct reimbursement (same net effect of course). Although slightly different from previous years, the questions didn't seem too tricky when I filled in this year's return in June. The HMRC document 'SA109 notes' (just google it for the link) is pretty easy to follow.

Regarding the SRT, there are automatic UK non-resident and UK resident criteria. If after answering the relevant questions you fall into neither category, there are further questions to establish the number of 'ties' you had with the UK during the tax year. The questions asked aren't unexpected in the circumstances (family ties, accommodation ties, 90 day ties, work ties, and country ties), and are direct and unambiguous. You do need to state separately how many nights you spent in the UK in 2013-14, as this then dictates how many 'ties' to the UK you need to have to be considered a UK tax resident for the year in question. I can't believe that the OP hasn't some form of diary, calendar or whatever which would tell her where she was and when, but if she does guess there is always a (very) small risk that HMRC will ask for some verification. I think a bit of time interrogating your memory and any other means to answer the questions properly would be time well spent!

[EuroTrash]

You are expected to keep records, sad as it sounds. Unfortunately HMRC can find out where you spent your time easier than you can if they decide they want to check, now passports are scanned and all the airlines and cross Channel operators have travellers' names and addresses on record.

[lindal1000]

Good..then should HMRC decide to check and find out that I slept 9 nights in the UK rather than the 10 I put down I will accept the consequences.

When I've travelled back to France on the tunnel my passport is often not checked and OH usually books the crossing in his name.. maybe they have some way of cross checking?

[Daft Doctor]

Hi, I think you'll find that UK border control are obsessional about checking passports, including at the tunnel terminals. The passports are checked and scanned at Calais for crossings into the UK and at Folkestone on the way to France IIRC. They will not let anyone into the UK without a valid passport, so yours will indeed have been checked.

[lindal1000]

Yes checked coming into UK but rarely checked when leaving..especially as we tend to take a very early crossing in the morning to come back. Last time there was no one on either the French or Uk customs and the security guy just waived us through without getting out of the booth.