The cost of living in france before we take the plunge

[Chancer]

If you are able to get by on the breadline in the UK you will probably do a litle better and have a happier life in France as long as you are mortgage free and pick a property that does not have outrageous taxes foncieres and habitation.

My living budget is €439 per month less than half the seuil de pauvreté in France and I consider myself to be anything but poor. this equates currently to a UKP income of just under £6k, I am however pretty much living on the minimum having made all the economies that I can.

You as a couple will have many costs shared between you, property taxes, heating, vehicle expenses and fuel so I would say that it is do-able but the question that you must ask yourselves is could you live on £10k per annum between you in the UK? Have you indeed ever tried? Many people end up spending much more once they have given up their jobs.

If you cant manage on £10K in the UK then you are not likely to be significantly better off in France, perhaps even worse off and should look perhaps at other countries.

[Sprogster]

chancer, you are overlooking the major cost factor, in that you presumably do not have to pay for health care, whereas euroman could be facing private health insurance premiums of several thousand euros each year.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Sprogster"]chancer, you are overlooking the major cost factor, in that you presumably do not have to pay for health care, whereas euroman could be facing private health insurance premiums of several thousand euros each year.[/quote]

Should he choose to do so Sprogster, no-one is going to force him to any more than would he be forced to pay for a mutuelle.

From the OP's first posting regarding EHIC I reckon that Pommiers suggestion will be more platable.

[Chancer]

[quote user="bixy"] Some of the posters above have quoted the high price of food items. I would say that is one of the smaller items of our expenditure. What really hurts are vehicle running costs; fuel, both domestic and vehicle; telecommunications - landline, mobiles, internet; insurances inc. mutuelle; and anytime you have to engage an artisan.

Patrick
[/quote]

Quite right Bixy however all of these costs can be minimized if not done away with if you are someone that can turn their hand to things and perhaps has already lived on a very restricted budget in the UK.

In my case my biggest expenditure is indeed food and even though like for like costs are higher in France overall I could not eke out my budget in the UK like I can in France.

Taking your list.

Vehicle running costs, - I have always done my own maintenance and repairs so nothing has changed in that respect my cots are the absolute minimum now that  I buy tyres and batteries etc in scrapyards (mainly in the UK). The vehicle overhead costs for me are much lower in France, - carte grise one time only vs road tax every year, the CT every 2 years and buying insurance in Holland.

Fuel, - Diesel is at least  20% cheaper here than in the UK my heating and hot water is by electricity which is cheaper than in the UK.

Telecommunications, - My phone/TV /internet package is far cheaper than would be a ADSL plus Sky package in the UK and I dont think any of them give free calls to France or around the world but i may be out of touch. I no longer have a mobile as they cost silly money for PAYG and you quickly lose the credit, its no great loss as we all once lived wothout one!

My property insurances were cheaper in France but now I dont have any at all, I have never had a mutuelle and to date despite having been carted away in an ambulance several times, passed a few weeks in hospital and have had 6 or more operating theatre operations and some out patient procedures I am still well ahead of the game by not payng for a mutuelle, granted this would be totally free in the UK.

Engaging artisans, - I never did in the UK and could not dream of doing so in France, luckily I can turn my hand to most things and  from what I have seen of  artisans work and judging by the amount of French people that have asked me to do work on their houses I do a far  better job even on trades that I have never attempted before.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Chancer"]

[quote user="Sprogster"]chancer, you are overlooking the major cost factor, in that you presumably do not have to pay for health care, whereas euroman could be facing private health insurance premiums of several thousand euros each year.[/quote]

Should he choose to do so Sprogster, no-one is going to force him to any more than would he be forced to pay for a mutuelle.

From the OP's first posting regarding EHIC I reckon that Pommiers suggestion will be more platable.

[/quote]

Untrue. If you come to France as an inactive without an E form then you must have private health cover.

[Pierre ZFP]

Hmmm, seem to have scared off the original poster.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Benjamin"][quote user="Chancer"]

[quote user="Sprogster"][/quote]

Should he choose to do so Sprogster, no-one is going to force him to any more than would he be forced to pay for a mutuelle.

[/quote]


Untrue. If you come to France as an inactive without an E form then you must have private health cover.

[/quote]

Nothing that I wrote was untrue.

Who exactly do you consider is going to enforce this "must"?

One must  breathe air, drink potable water and eat nourishing food to survive but it isnt the law. People are free to starve, malbouffe or drink themselves to death and many do just that.

[JohnRoss]

Surely the bottom line is that anyone coming to France without some form of health cover wants their head feeling. I don't suppose they are going to leave you bleeding to death after an RTA or dying of a heart attack but the bill will be enormous. Both of us have had serious life threatening medical problems here and major surgery and on-going treatment. If we had been presented with the bill we would now be destitute and no mistake. Whether or not it is a legal requirement to have proven health cover is beside the point. You would have to be crazy not to have assurance of some sort!...............JR

[Quillan]

If the OP wants to come and live, be resident, in France what Benjamin is saying going by the fact that the OP is not of retirement age and does not have access to a E121 and does not intend to work and pay cotistations is true. We all know there is a right way and a wrong way to do things in life so even though its not the right and probably not the legal way to do things if the person keeps a UK doctor and address and 'claims' they are only on 'holiday' then they can use a UK EHIC card for treatment in France. They will of course have to pay the 'extra' 30% or whatever that a mutual would pay.

There are Brits doing this in France, probably quite few even though technically (and probably legally) they are wrong but then as Chancer says who's going to actually check. With the increasing reliance the French have on you filling in a tax form as a sign of residence there could be other problems like not being able to claim some advantages that a resident can by not doing so. I am thinking about getting money back in the form of tax rebates for things like having some types of heating etc installed off the top of my head and I am sure there are other things as well.

My personal feeling is that you should always do it the right way as you never know whats round the corner in life and trying to play two sides to your advantage might seem clever at the outset but may cost you a lot more in the future. Therefore the right thing for the OP to do as they are not going to be working is to take out personal private health insurance or alternatively get a job in France and pay their way.

[Chancer]

[quote user="JohnRoss"] You would have to be crazy not to have assurance of some sort!...............JR[/quote]

And I had to be even more crazy to have chosen where I live [:P]

[danny]

Say goodbye to 12.1% of any interest earned in the form of social payments.

[cooperlola]

I've just had a quick look at one private health policy for France.  The cost is 1500€ for a person between 50 and 55.  For hospital only the cost can be reduced to 1100 but then you'd have to buy all drugs, pay docs' bills, anciliary care (nursing, blood tests, transport costs associated with out-patient visits etc). By the time the age goes up to between 60 and 65, the cost has escalated by another 800 Euros.  You must budget for the years between any E106 entitlement you have and five years' residence to pay private costs (you cannot join the French system until you've been here for 5 years.) What is more, in theory at any rate, you won't be able to join the French system after five years unless you private cover has been full and comprehensive under the French government guidelines thus the hospital only policy may not be suitable.  

[mint]

[quote user="danny"]Say goodbye to 12.1% of any interest earned in the form of social payments.
[/quote]

Yes, Danny, I'm surprised no one's picked up on this so far.  On 10k interest, that would certainly take the shine off that sum a bit![:(]

[Benjamin]

I can now see why, J R, you changed your name.

I think the strength of this forum is that someone will always publish the correct way of doing things. You shoild have found some way of including the word illegal in your posting.

[Chancer]

You are making assumptions Benjamin [:P] I have described many times why I changed my user name but in case you missed them it was a homage to Ron who used to enjoy referring to me as "The Chancer", I didnt take it to heart, indeed you are more than welcome to call me by another name if you wish as I miss the banter with Ron [;-)]

Aside from that please tell me where you think my posting was untrue and where I should have used the word illegal.

As is often the case Quillans posting was very well considered and balanced, it takes all types to make a world.

[Benjamin]

In your case, chancers.

It's going to be so much fun watching the duckers and divers when the health and tax departments get joined up.  [:D]

[Will]

Chancer, certain things you have said are of dubious legality, such as "My property insurances were cheaper in France but now I dont have any at

all" and "vehicle overhead costs for me are much lower in France... buying

insurance in Holland". Like your stance on private medical insurance these depend on not getting found out, of course.

Although you are obviously happy sailing close to the wind, bending the rules, it seems rather irresponsible to encourage newcomers to France to do likewise. Similarly you are happy eking out limited funds and living as cheaply as possible; this might not correspond to the perceived view that France offers a 'better quality of life'.

Edit: From www.frenchhealthissues.eu -

"UK nationals resident in France, whose healthcare is not covered by

one of the state schemes, should purchase comprehensive sickness cover... The requirements for 'comprehensive' sickness insurance cover are

detailed in Article L321-1 of the French Legal Code."

That looks rather like a legal requirement to have full health insurance, either through an E-form, membership of the French scheme, or private cover.

[Chancer]

I do agree Will that I am sailing close to the wind re property insurance and I will get some as soon as cashflow allows but I dont think that I am bending any rules or breaking any laws. My vehicle insurance is through the Dutch insurer Ineas and is perfectly legal as was the AXA insurance that I once had in the UK, I dont see how it can be a case of depending on not getting found out, for what exactly?

I didnt think that I was encouraging newcomers to break the rules rather than challenging the assumptions that a couple cannot live on £10k per year and that the poverty line in France is €900 per month for a single person, like I say I live a very good if frugal life on less than half of that.

Yes I am happy eking out limited funds as I have a positive mental attitude but I dont really have any other choice in the matter, in life one has to play with the cards one is dealt with.

I understand that my viewpoint may be different from those who for example seek out rules to abide by but in my book the word should, as in UK nationals resident in France, whose healthcare is not covered by one of the state schemes, should purchase comprehensive sickness cover does not make a legal requirement, must, or has to would be more appropriate but are still only words not a definitive law.

I still would like to know who exactly is going to enforce this perceived legal requirement to have full health insurance

[cooperlola]

I venture to suggest, Chancer (if I might be so bold!) that whilst it may seem perfectly OK to a single chap with a house in both countries to bend the rules a little, a couple who can only ever afford to live in one camp or another and who want to live happily, if not extravagently, may prefer to live within the law and get a good night's sleep.  [:)]

 

In answer to your question, it has been suggested to me that when one applies for CMU at any future date under the 5 year rule, then one's private policy may well be scrutinised at that stage.  As we have yet to reach the date when this may happen, nobody really know though.  The question is one of risk and only the o/p and those like him/her can make that decision for themselves at this juncture.  By 2012 we may know more.

[Chancer]

Je vous en prie Cooperlola [:)]

Having looked back on my postings I can now see where it looks like I was encouraging them to bend the rules, in fact as Sprogster first pointed out I had just not thought of deducting the cost of health insurance from the OP's income, my posting that followed saying that Pommier's suggestion might be more palatable I can see could be viewed as encouragement.

As you rightly point out it is about risk and everyone has a different level of risk aversion and quite rightly have to make their own decisions and be responsible for the consequences of them

Interesting that another first time poster has not responded, perhaps it was intended to stir things up?

How is your recovery going? I often think about you.

[Sprogster]

I would have thought that the greatest worry about not having private medical insurance in France is falling seriously ill and having to sell everything to pay your medical bills!

My understanding is that if you are a 'vistor' to France with an EHIC card this only covers you for emergency treatment until you can get back to the UK, which a hospital will expect you to do at the earliest opportunity your medical condition allows.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Benjamin"]In your case, chancers.

It's going to be so much fun watching the duckers and divers when the health and tax departments get joined up.  [:D][/quote]

Sorry to spoil your fun Benjamin but I cant see how that would affect me.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Sprogster"]I would have thought that the greatest worry about not having private medical insurance in France is falling seriously ill and having to sell everything to pay your medical bills! .[/quote]

I think the biggest problem is in chosing between a hospital only policy and a "full " one which fulfils the legal code which Will quotes from the FHI website.  It's there where one might well decide to take the risk on the basis which Chancer cites - ie are we really sure that policies will be scrutinised in that much detail before one is granted admission to CMU under the 5 year rule?  We just don't know yet but, to my mind,  the law at any rate is pretty clear.  If I had fewer than 5 years to go before an E121 though, I might personally be prepared to take the risk but I'd still be worried about the high costs involved in things not covered by the policy.  I'd have had to have  sold my house twice over to pay for the rehab' treatment I've had since my accident - happily all to be paid for by the other driver's insurance - but what if it had been my fault?

The EHIC certainly has a wider use than the E111 which it replaced but even so broadly, I think you are correct in that long term treatments (such as for cancer etc) would be expected to be carried out in the country which the holder gave as their "home" when applying for it.

[euroman]

Many thanks for all your comments one more question that has been put to me.

Is there some rule that if you buy a house in France but only visit for 90 days at a time you can still use the NHS in the UK at the same time are able to use the EHIC in France?

Thanks again

[cooperlola]

[quote user="euroman"]Many thanks for all your comments one more question that has been put to me. Is there some rule that if you buy a house in France but only visit for 90 days at a time you can still use the NHS in the UK at the same time are able to use the EHIC in France? Thanks again[/quote]It's more complicated than this but broadly you must be registered for healthcare (and thus obtain your EHIC/CEAM) in the country in which you spend the majority of your time - ie a minimum of six months and one day each year.  Where 90 days comes from I don't know.

I still think you'd find that Sprogster is broadly correct in that you'd also be expected to get any long-term ongoing treatment from your home country.

EDIT : You must also bear in mind that any treatment in France is only covered as for a French person - ie approximately 70% - the rest you'd have to either cough up for or be insured. 

And of course you can always work - even part time work or a small business can get you into the French healthcare system if you do it correctly.