passports

[valB]

I know I really need to talk to someone in the UK but I wondered if there were any legal bods out there who could give some advice.  My daughter-in-law has three children by her first tmarriage and she agreed several years ago that her ex could take the children abroad even though she has custody of the children. Her ex is now refusing to give her the passports claiming he has lost them which is untrue as he has been on a site showing the children the passports and has even been as cruel as to ask if they have been abroad lately. Our daughter-in-law has seen a solicitor who advised her that her ex must send a letter claiming  he has lost the said passports which he refuses to do. Apart from waiting for the passports to expire what can they do so that  our son, wife and children can come to visit us here in France. How cruel can one parent be to deprive their children of travelling abroad and the middle daughter could not go on a school trip to France  she did not have her passport.  The children do not want to see him as he is sometimes quite nasty to them but is using the passports as a form of blackmail.  Our daughter-in-law was quite happy for him to have access on school holidays but as the children got older they are now refusing to see him as he could be really a nasty person. The only alternative is for our son and daughter-in-law is to wait for the passports to expire but that is another few years. We would dearly love them all to visit us but it does not look as though that will be in the near future. I always thought that it was illegal to keep passports that belonged to someone else and the said passports are in the childrens names  Can anyone give some advice  ?

[Chancer]

Can she not apply for replacements for the "lost" passports in her own right?

Then the ex could sell them on [6] You never know your granchildren might end up with an illegal immigrant making pension contributions for them!

[Scooby]

Have you tried contacting the passport office for a replacement passport?  Replacement passports can be provided if the original is lost, stolen or damaged.  It would seem your circumstances fit into one of the former two categories.  If he genuinely can't find them as he claims then a claim for a replacement passport on the grounds the original is lost is a perfectly valid and straightforward process.  If he has the passports and is refusing to return them then this would seem to amount to theft - another legitimate reason to request a replacement passport. Failing that it is also possible to have a duplicate passport issued.  This is usually done when the holder is a frequent traveller and so may need to submit their passport as part of a visa application whilst still needing it for travel.  Duplicate passports are usually issued for a shorter period of time but as children's passports only last for 5 years anyway it may suffice.

[Pickles]

If you look at the following document (pp33-34), it would appear that in such situations, if the father is the person who signed the original passport application, and assuming that he had sufficient rights to do so, only he can declare it lost: if the mother signed the original application then she can declare it lost. If the former situation applies, and the father is unwilling to declare the passports lost, then I am afraid it appears to be up to the family court to make a ruling. The Passport service cannot and will not intervene.

http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/files/ips/live/assets/documents/children_v_website.pdf

Regards

Pickles

[valB]

Thank you for your replies. Yes, her ex did apply for the passports originally but she has offered to reimburse him for the cost. He totally refuses to accept her offer and the Passport office will not issue new passports unless he states they are lost which he refuses to do. So a " catch 22 " situation, I am afraid. She has spoken to the Passport Office but until they receive notification from her ex that they have been lost they can do nothing. I feel very bitter and feel no sympathy at this moment in time for the " Fathers for Justice " idiots who dress up in pathetic costumes for their rights to see their children. If this one Father is an example of how pathetic they can be then they deserve all they get as no Mother would deny their children the right to see their natural Father.

I suppose I will have to wait a few years before m son, wife and their children can visit me all due to a Father who does not really care about his children at all.

[Hoddy]

Oh how I sympathise ValB. My ex son-in-law imagines that he is punishing my daughter for having the audacity to leave him, in fact he's punishing his daughters just to satisfy his own impulse for spite. I daren't write what I think about the CSA, except to say that is is a complete charade and should be closed down.

The only thing I can suggest is that she contacts her MP,  perhaps he could help.

Hoddy

[valB]

Gosh, it is awful for us parents to know what these men get away with. What hurts us even more is that although we dearly love our step Grandchildren our son has a baby with his new wife and we are missing out on him as well.  As for the CSA, our daughter-in-law gave them proof that her ex has bought a house with the woman he left her for. She managed to get the information from Land Registry but he just said it was a business transaction. His new partner is now pregnant and they are getting married soon but he told the CSA that he cannot have any more children and they have taken his word on eveything. All emails to his children, which were printed out and presented to the CSA were dismissed regarding the arrival of a baby with a woman who is a " business partner " and the joint ownership of a house. He claims he cannot pay maintenance as he is renting a property and has no money left over. Both he and his partner are in full time employment but the CSA would rather accept his word than the printed evidence before them.  That is the type of person my son and his wife are dealing with regarding the passports so not much hope in pricking his concience is there ? It is costing us  a fortune visiting them just to see the children when they could be having a lovely time here with us.

[Chancer]

I sympathise with you Val and when you mentioned a web site I wondered if it were fathers for justice.

I do agree with you that "no woman in her right mind would deny their children the right to see their natural father" but sadly many do, hence the existence of such groups as fathers for justice.

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="valB"]

 I feel very bitter and feel no sympathy at this moment in time for the " Fathers for Justice " idiots who dress up in pathetic costumes for their rights to see their children. If this one Father is an example of how pathetic they can be then they deserve all they get as no Mother would deny their children the right to see their natural Father.

[/quote]

I think you need to revisit this. Your anger and resentment at your daughter-in-law's first husband's behaviour appears to be blinding you to the realisation that these are men whose wives have put them into very similar situations to that of your daughter-in-law.  They are not "idiots" but men feeling the same kind of pain that you are feeling. Think about it.

As for the problems with the passports, could it be that the father might find a commercial use for them, providing "identity" for potential illegal immigrants? Could the seeds of suspicion be sown with the police or the UK Border Agency?

Another method your daughter-in-law might consider would be to approach her MP with this problem. MPs can access government departments and present cases and arguments with greater flexibility and success than can members of the public. 

[andyh4]

It is not illegal to apply for and hold more than one passport.

You have to declare to the passport office why you require a second one and I would have thought that the reasons Val has given should be adequate.

 

We have sales people who have to carry up to 3 passports because of the countries they visit on business and the mutal non acceptance of a passport with an entry Visa for the other land.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="valB"]

 as no Mother would deny their children the right to see their natural Father.

[/quote]I know how you must be feeling but I'm afraid in this you are quite wrong.  When parents are at war, they use whatever is handy to beat one another up with and if that happens to be the children, then they are fair game.  Women are just as capable of vindictive behaviour like this, believe me.  As hard as this is at the moment though, long term the children will realise what their father has tried to do and the parent who responded with love and understanding will earn their lasting respect, not the mean spirited one.  I know this from personal experience. It sounds like, for the moment at least, you will have to content yourself with going to the UK to see your grandchildren instead of them coming to you.

With luck, their father will get bored with using these petty-minded methods to hurt his ex wife and he will "find" the passports eventually.  Bon courage to you all.

[valB]

Thank you all for your replies and I do appologise if I offended some with my remarks. Yes, I agree that my anger may have come to the fore. I have spoken to my daughter-in-law this morning and passed on some of the advice given here. Once again, Thank you all.