Quillan Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 No point in a link as I suspect you all know about recent events in the past 24 hours in the US.It seems to me that in this modern day and age America really has to get to grips with its gun laws. The 'right to bear arms' or whatever the exact phrase is in their constitution is well out of date. Like the rest of you my condolences go to those who have lost a loved one in this terrible affair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ceour de Lion II Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I don't think the gun laws are the problem, they are already quite strict. How would you ban them anyway? If someone wants to do this kind of sick act, they will find a way, banned or not. Look at Norway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 A link would have been usefull as I am ignorant of the events, mind you I have been packing/travelling/sleeping/unpacking after a 1 month YUK stay.Am off to a news site now, I get the impression it must be something big although no-one here has mentioned it to me and I havnt watched the news yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 The problem is the gun laws vary from one state to another and no they are not s strict.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2011-01-11-fox11_st_N.htm When you look at all the mass killing over the last 50 years in the US where guns are used I would hardly, as terrible as it was, put the incident in Norway in the same league frequency wise even though as a one off it was pretty terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ceour de Lion II Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Yes, the frequency in the US is alarming.I don't believe changing the constitution is the answer. Ideally, no guns should be in the average person's hands, and I used to think that the US should just ban them, but I actually think that would make matters worse, because there would need to be some sort of amnesty where people bring their guns in. What would happen is the honest people would do that, and the bad people would keep them and be even more of a threat.As with most things, I believe attitude and education is the key, but even then it's difficult to get people to listen.Shame his mother didn't have an abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I remember in Bowling for Columbine, Michael Moore making the suggestion that there be a prohibitive tax on bullets (much like there is on fags in Europe). Struck me as an excellent notion. Yes, there would be a black market but the bad guys will be bad guys whatever you do.I don't know the answer but I do know that these incidents seem to be more common in the US than anywhere else in the Western World even Canada, where there are loads of guns about but far, far less gun crime.A very sad business, whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I remember in the late ‘90s when Blair ordered all privately owned firearms to the crusher including our collection which we used solely for target practice.Now the gun owners are criminals with the odd exception.During my frequent stays in the US, everybody and I mean everybody I know has a gun and in some states they can legally carry concealed weapons. As a visitor OH rather than borrow bought a couple for shooting the odd deadly snake that pops into the garden. That’s how easy it is to own.In my experience the average household in the majority of states has a pretty large arsenal. I have to say, I feel much safer there when I’m inside the house than anywhere else I have ever lived which includes many countries. Depending on the state, the burglar/intruder has to contend with the knowledge of the occupier being able to shoot him dead legally. For me, that is quite a deterrent and peace of mind in this increasingly violent society.I do miss this backup/security when back in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ceour de Lion II Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 [quote user="betty"]I remember in the late ‘90s when Blair ordered all privately owned firearms to the crusher including our collection which we used solely for target practice.Now the gun owners are criminals with the odd exception.During my frequent stays in the US, everybody and I mean everybody I know has a gun and in some states they can legally carry concealed weapons. As a visitor OH rather than borrow bought a couple for shooting the odd deadly snake that pops into the garden. That’s how easy it is to own.In my experience the average household in the majority of states has a pretty large arsenal. I have to say, I feel much safer there when I’m inside the house than anywhere else I have ever lived which includes many countries. Depending on the state, the burglar/intruder has to contend with the knowledge of the occupier being able to shoot him dead legally. For me, that is quite a deterrent and peace of mind in this increasingly violent society.I do miss this backup/security when back in Europe.[/quote]That's interesting, I don't know a single person who carries a gun, much less owns one. Maybe gun laws in New Jersey where I live are stricter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Yes they are, New Jersey has notoriously restrictive laws concerning the purchase, possession and sale of weapons in general, but specifically firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 in some states they can legally carry concealed weapons. Doesn't that require a special licence ?I know quite a few Americans and I've never known one to carry a gun although I suspect a couple who live in rural areas, may do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 RH. Yes a special licence but you only need to take a short course (depending on the state) of just a few hours to obtain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 'Civilians' should not be allowed guns with the exception of farmers who should receive special training and pass both a mental stability test as well as a practical test.As things unroll it is clear this guy has mental health problems so why was not his guns taken from him, somebody must of known? What American law shows clearly is that the American police and other internal security groups are either under funded, have not enough staff or are incompetent.In America around 266 people are shot every date with some 85 per day dying (source) that's some 97,000 plus per year shot and some 31,000 per year killed. There is a direct link with the number of people who own guns with over 90% of the adult population owning a gun of some sort. In some states (not many thankfully) the definition of adult can be as low as 16. Compare this to the UK where there are very strict controls and you will be lucky if you can count 5 killed by a gun in any one year. This also shows that the argument of criminals having guns, running around killing people and the public not having ta gun is a myth.The American constitutional right to bear arms is totally out of date and should be removed and gun ownership, with the exception of what I mentioned above, be banned. Seems to me that Americans, even after so many tragic incidences, just refuse to see this which is very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Q,Why the exception of farmers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Because a bear might on the farm as well as his cows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 [quote user="betty"]Q, Why the exception of farmers?[/quote]Pest control but even so they need to be better regulated. I used to have a shotgun, I used to go skeet shooting but looking back now I didn't really need to have one because the club owned guns you could use for the day. More often it 'boys with toys' and their morbid infatuation with owning something that kills things. Once that penny drops you get rid of the thing. Even people who shoot for sport can leave their guns at their club which I believe they now do in the UK where there is special security protection etc. Quite simply put there is no need and every justification for a member of the public to own a gun can be dismissed with logical and valid argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 My immediate neighbour is a farmer, disliked immensely by most. I would hate him to be the only one in the commune armed. Pest control for him would include my dog and if he was shot, well…………..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 [quote user="betty"]My immediate neighbour is a farmer, disliked immensely by most. I would hate him to be the only one in the commune armed. Pest control for him would include my dog and if he was shot, well…………..![/quote]Is he armed? If you and others think he has a few mental issues why not report him to the police and express your concerns? What would you do if he shot your dog and you had a gun, shoot him, I don't think so. Even though, like the majority of dog owners, you love your dog I cannot see you shooting somebody for killing a pet. People do tend to think it is easy to shoot another person, point and pull the trigger, well it isn't. Police are specially trained both physically and mentally as are those in the armed forces that will find themselves in such a position, civilians, or the general public, are not. In the majority of cases those that do pull the trigger, like this chap in the US and the guy in Norway, are mentally unstable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Q,Your theory was to allow farmers to have guns, having a gun makes you armed by definition. You seem to be modifying my post.I said the farmer was disliked immensely. I made no mention of his mental state.I also made no mention of shooting him.If you want to quote someone please be more accurate in your chosen words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 There was a case reported in the Depeche on Friday of an armed robbery at a Paris jewellers. The shopkeeper had a gun and shot the robber, killing him.Not sure if he had a license, but the report seemed to indicate that his action was justified. So it's ok to kill someone if your own life is threatened.Situations like that show the right to own a gun applies to more and more people. eg in Israel, you see family groups out for the day and the father is wearing a gun openly in a holster around his waist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 Nope I have noyt changed your post nor the quote I used.I was implying 'if' you had a gun "What would you do if he shot your dog and you had a gun....", I have no idea if you do or don't.I apologise for my first comment not explaining what I meant which is basically does he walk or drive around with his gun all the time? Why is he disliked immensely by most? It's just that down here the only people (all two of them) who fit that bill in our village are also thought to be mentally challenged but perhaps that's not the case where you live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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