idun Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 I have read and heard much of all the abuse scandals in the UK and France and it has made me think about times gone by..... well when I was young....... and how things hopefully have changed.When I was a shy girl, I was well aware that men usually, rather than boys of my age often treat 'girls' (and women) as fair game, and those that were inclined, felt free to have a quick grope. Or get their thrills by being physically too close so that they could actually have bodily contact rather than overtly touching the girl concerned, very creepy, especially if one runs out of space to avoid such assaults, because that is basically what they were and maybe are. The men that didn't act in any way inappropriately never ever said a word to those that did, which thinking back was a sort of complicity. It is hard for me to believe that they did not know what was happening. I have no idea if some girls didn't mind and maybe believed that it happened as they were attractive. Or maybe they did mind, but ignored it. Me, it terrified me, just the idea and I would steer clear of males that I felt were creepy. In fact, I developed instinctive judgements on all males, as to whether I would feel OK being stuck in a lift with them. To some degree that remains with me, even though this old gal is unlikely to be accosted in any way. So the culture in NE England in the late 60's and seventies was there. And if a girl had complained? Well, wouldn't society have said that she asking for it? That is how I felt about things then, that whatever, no one would listen, and you kept quiet. Was this 'fair game' culture that was 'ignored' by society just part of a general way of looking at things back then, and in some ways included child abuse? And all that sex and drugs and rock and roll thing, well if in a little office nulle part someone could get away with acting inappropriately, is there any wonder that famous people imagined that they could get away with even more? That things are coming out now seems inevitable. It isn't just the UK, there has been a child abuse scandal on french news this week. Only the law in France has a time limit for victims to come forward, which in itself is France's shame. And I know that it changed a little a few years ago, but not enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardian Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 An interesting thread Idun.Mrs G maintains that the sort-of 'creepy' bloke that you describe is a bit of a thing of the past. I'm not so sure - some people just can't stop themselves and no amount of increased awareness and employee protection will stop them.I retired nine years ago and so my experience isn't very up to date. However in the mid-90's I remember two instances of exactly what you describe. Both individuals had been formally warned before for inappropriate behaviour and yet they still did it: one was dismissed after further complaints from the same two women, the other was given a final written warning and subsequently fired. In the second case, he was a colleague manager who was making a nuisance of himself with some of my female staff: I got his boss to sort him out formally and I 'read his palm' informally.Anyway, if you're saying that things are better now in terms of non-acceptance of that sort of behaviour, then you're probably right, although it'll vary from Company to Company and social group to social group. Will it ever go away? Never, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 I've been thinking along the same lines Idun.I have two grand daughters aged eleven and almost fourteen. What advice would you offer them in their dealings with men ?At the moment I feel like reverting to Victorian times and banning everything.Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 I still think there's an incredibly fine line...Now, I know that there will be many women who will say the same, but I've spent the majority of my working life in very male-dominated industries, and to a large extent I've worked in roles traditionally occupied by men. In order to convince the men around me that I was capable of doing my job, I needed the skin of a rhino. I guess, therefore, I've been quite fortunate in that I don't think I've had much experience of "inappropriate behaviour", and I've always treated any vague attempts at such things by ignoring them . Really, really ignoring them. I've generally managed to be "one of the lads". Not that it's been my aim, but I do believe that one of the most important things is NOT to be too much of a girly. However, I've also spent an awful lot of my working life in roles which have required me to turn up, alone and often with no local help, in some of the less developed and hospitable parts of the globe, so I guess I'm not really much of a girly in the first place. I've been stuck on the edge of war zones, under curfews and on one occasion bussed to an aircraft to leave the country whilst armed terrorists held a hijacked plane on the tarmac a few yards away...so fending off the unwanted attentions of a work colleague or any man, for that matter, never seemed that big a deal. There's part of me that believes, however, that whether now or in the past, sexual predators are no different from muggers, pickpockets, opportunist thieves....All of them have their jobs made a little easier by people who somehow expect to be victims. If you set out to make sure you aren't going to let yourself be a victim, I firmly believe there's far less chance of becoming one. Failing all else, a knee in the groin works wonders, so I'm told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 [quote user="You can call me Betty"]. Failing all else, a knee in the groin works wonders, so I'm told.[/quote]Brings tears to my eyes just to think of it[:D]But to be serious this thread has highlighted a very serious issue. It is clearly intolerable that people should be subjrcted to unwelcome advances etc. The good news is that attitudes are changing however slowly but things appear to be getting better. For once real progress even if it is not quick enough. Countries like Sweden to appear to be a bit more advanced than the UK in this respect.Unfortunately at the basic level we are mammals and have the same basic instincts as other mammals where males tend to be opportunistic sexual predators on females. One would hope that we humans would learn to control our basic instincts but it does appear that male of the species is a bit behind the female in this respect. Unfortunately for too many the veil of civilisation is very thin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 What an interesting subject. I took the liberty of doing a bit of research during which I have learnt a little about myself (being male) as well.For a start I don't believe in the 'Fair Game' scenario myself although I know what it is and have heard men say it and think that way of thinking is rather immature. However you need to look at the 78 (most none sexual) differences between men and women. For a start the sex drive of a man is much higher and quite different to those of a woman. A woman's sex drive is, apparently, less direct than a mans and more 'fluid' which is why more women than men are attracted to the same sex (that's something I never knew). Women and men are quite clearly different mentally and whilst many men have made jokes about women relating to specific things it not turns out that some of them are true. For instance men's brains are more advance mathematically and are better spatially aware. The maths capability in an average girl at 12 years is the same as an average boy at 8 years. The old joke about women navigators is not really a joke because of these two differences. However through education this difference can be eradicated.Women are more in control of their emotions than men and can detect emotion in others easier, probably a reason for the old saying about women's intuition. Women have a more violent disposition than men but they control it far better. They have a built in protection system for their children, women are far more likely to kill to protect their children than men.Humans as animals have one major advantage over all other species, we know the difference between right and wrong (in most cases). This is how we know how to keep some of these things in check. However these differences have to be understood before we move on to the subject at hand and why men and women behave the way they do.I have always made myself quite clear about equality amongst the sexes, possibly naively so to some men, and do consider woman and men to be equal. Yes I see attractive women and I do think about sex at times when I see them as many other men do but it is only thoughts which is quite different to actually 'doing' because I know that would be wrong. Sadly some men don't know the difference between right and wrong (as do some women by the way) and become predatory. Incidentally infidelity is far higher amongst men than women but overall infidelity in marriage is actually very low. I can understand the worries that women have towards their children (particularly female children) because of what I have said and the predatory men don't exactly walk around with flashing lights on their heads.All that said these sexual predators have been around since we first walked upright and probably before then even. The modern difference is we talk about it more and we all agree such behavior is not acceptable. It has to be also said that these people are very much in the minority, as a percentage of the population its about 1 to the minus 10 but it does make for newsworthiness so often appears to be much, much higher. There is also the subject of education in this area. My parents drilled in to me "never take sweets from a stranger" and "never get in a car with a stranger". Sadly the latter is not good advice as in most cases of child molestation the victim knows the molester. My parents also told me that they would never, ever, send anyone to collect me, it would be either one or both of them and that if anyone ever did say they were there to collect me to go back in to school and tell a teacher or run away and find a policeman although the latter in modern times are difficult to find.So basically you can't do anything about the predators and molesters other than educate your kids on what to watch out for and what to do which is probably the same as our parents taught us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Here endeth the first lesson... We shall now sing "All things bright and beautiful" with Norman on the organ. And Quillan will take round the collection box, guarded by Sweet 17 in a tutu![Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 D'you fart in church, as well, woolly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 [quote user="You can call me Betty"]D'you fart in church, as well, woolly?[/quote]You know those really deep base notes from the organ that make the place vibrate? Well they ain't actually from the organ. [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 [quote user="You can call me Betty"]D'you fart in church, as well, woolly?[/quote]Havent been to church since being forced to do so to get married, but yes, as a schoolboy one always did, but quietly as the head was close and his wife's nasty beady, little eyes and ears were always on the watch for 'sin'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Nidea Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 [quote user="woolybanana"]Here endeth the first lesson... We shall now sing "All things bright and beautiful" with Norman on the organ. And Quillan will take round the collection box, guarded by Sweet 17 in a tutu![Www][/quote]Oh please! That is not a sight of Norman anybody should witness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 17, 2012 Author Share Posted November 17, 2012 I thought carefully about the title of this thread, but, it fitted what I wanted to say. I am very aware of the differences between men and women and how our brains and hormones are so very different and how we see the world quite differently. One leads a happier life, if the differences are accepted and do not become the reason to battle.Betty, how old were you when all these adventures started, because, as frightening as they sound to me, they are the sort of stuff I love to read of in books and hence they become part of what I class as 'adventure'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Idun, I was 20 when I went off to live in France, 21 when I came back and started work, and 22 when I started travelling. My first "adventure" was going off on secondment to Australia 3 weeks after getting married whilst Mr Betty stayed in the UK. I spent the first 6 months of my married life on the other side of the world from my husband, and the first 16 years of my married life travelling for work.. Over that time I worked in over 40 countries. And if I had a pound for every bloke I've sat next to on a plane who has said "And what does your husband think of you travelling so much?" I would be a very wealthy Betty.[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 17, 2012 Author Share Posted November 17, 2012 What an interesting life you have led Betty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Nidea Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Reading this topic has made me realise that I must have come from a much different generation, or perhaps I led a very sheltered life.I know that not many of you have a high opinion of the Daily Mail but that shouldn't prevent you from enjoying this article, which is a little of how I remember things.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2193390/Sex-I-invented-Pauline-farmers-girl-cowshed-1954-COLIN-DUNNE-reveals-sexual-revolution-really-started-unlikely-setting-Yorkshire-Dales.htmlApologies for the link as I couldn't hide it under a shorter heading, seems to be a problem with the forum software perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 17, 2012 Author Share Posted November 17, 2012 Different generation? Well I cannot see things having been better for those a little older than my self and I was born in 1953. I just cannot see the predatory males other than taking advantage. These men in their 40's and 50's had surely been at their inappropriate behaviour for quite some time?I do hope that things are different now. I started work young and by the time I was 20 was rather more sure of myself. My timidity starting to go by then and rather more worldly wise. Sexual revolution invented in the early 50's? doubt it, I think that since the beginning of time people have been at it. That is not what I see as a problem, the problem for me is when it was usually older men would be in appropriate with young girls. A culture that was never discussed, and quite quite disgusting.Strange you mentioning North Yorkshire though. Last week I think it was, there was a serial mistress on tv saying that it was wives fault when their husband's strayed....... 'wives should always be lovers too.. etc'. And this serial mistress was, well, rather plump, not that there is anything wrong with that, ordinary looking.......nothing wrong with that either, AND not young, maybe in her mid forties, not that there is anything wrong with that either. However, I would suppose that one's other half straying was bad enough without him straying with someone who wasn't anything in any way special. And if it were mine straying, I would feel like seeing this woman was adding insult to injury..... or maybe that is just me. Probably these husband aren't anything special either. And this is all between adults, and not unwanted attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 So, this serial mistress, was she a sort of rumpy plumpy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 17, 2012 Author Share Posted November 17, 2012 Apparently yes, been out with a 100 married men and intimate with quite a lot of them, or so she said. I had to laugh, she always let them pay for dinner and it would appear that dinner was always part of it, no wonder, that lady obviously likes her food....... not that there is anything wrong with that either!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Where does mistress end and hooker begin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 18, 2012 Author Share Posted November 18, 2012 Now there is a question. As this woman said, most of her lovers were on expense accounts, so the company would be paying the bill. Cannot see her being happy with the word 'hooker' though, although she appeared to like to be called a serial mistress. I don't think that anyone ever pays her in cash, so if I had to decide, I'd say 'mistress'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frecossais Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 My brother used to work for a Charity whose work included trying to ..... well I suppose you might say make paedophiles "see the error of their ways".I remember him being in despair that these men thought that they did nothing wrong in molesting and abusing children. They excused their predatory behaviour by saying that their victims were complicit in what they did, liked it and wanted it.That thought makes me feel quite sick. Quillan is right, we do need to warn our children to be on their guard, and above all, as the recent revelations about Savile show, to TELL, TELL, TELL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 [quote user="Frecossais"]That thought makes me feel quite sick. Quillan is right, we do need to warn our children to be on their guard, and above all, as the recent revelations about Savile show, to TELL, TELL, TELL. [/quote]And hopefully people willlisten and take it seriously enough to investigate instead of telling them not to be so stupid or nasty (trying to get somebody in to trouble). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 [quote user="woolybanana"]Where does mistress end and hooker begin?[/quote]I would say that a mistress has one regular clent while a hooker if successful has a full rota of clients. Just my two cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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