How to deprive your village of a free service .

[Frederick]

This is going to backfire on  a couple of UK villages not so far from me . Talking to  two other voluntary drivers today it seems the Police have written to them about their speed . The speed adversary signs which light up when approached and show your speed on entering these villages so you can drop down to the limit .  Have elderly residents sitting on garden chairs close to them and they take the numbers of any cars that light it up as they have to be over the limit to switch it on . They pass the numbers to Police HQ and out go the  warning letters saying any other similar  report coming in from the village and  they will  prosecute.

Result the drivers are going refuse to go to the villages to take people into hospital.......Can do without the hassle seems to be the feeling .

[YCCMB]

I think your mistaken use of the word "adversary" speaks volumes. These signs are not there to tell you your speed "so you can drop down to the speed limit" FGS, they're there to tell you you're BREAKING the speed limit.

I venture to suggest that if your friendly volunteers are more interested in maintaining their ability to regularly exceed the speed limit, then perhaps other volunteers who don't mind observing it could be found, making everyone's lives safer.

[Frederick]

 I used the word as they are not speed cameras ... They are not there the photograph and record your speed . They "Advise " "Warn " call it what you like so you can take action to reduce to the speed limit if you just happen to be a bit over . I think they are very effective and work well  , If that's not what they are there  to achieve then why are they there ?  I am perfectly well aware that people taking car numbers and passing them to the Police have  ...I imagine some would say .......already made their village safer by making  people decide they don't want to go there... I just happen to have met two today .

[YCCMB]

You used the word"adversary " whereas I assume you meant "advisory". These signs light up to advise you that you are exceeding the speed limit, for goodness sake!

Either way, and semantics aside, if you have met two people who have decided to avoid an area rather than obey the speed limit, and furthermore if these were people who were quite happy to commit a speeding offence whilst driving people to hospital appointments, then I would venture to suggest that this can only be a very good thing!

[Clarkkent]

I have to agree with Betty.

Do these people think that their illegal driving practices should be excused because they are ferrying people for hospital treatment? Do you think that sick and vulnerable people should be transported by people who drive carelessly - even dangerously? Have you thought about the real consequences of their behaviour?

Perhaps the drivers believe that they should be considered to be ambulance drivers. Ambulance drivers undergo training to be able to drive under blue lights, and this training emphasises the need not to endanger other road users. Have these volunteer drivers been subjected to any driving assessment? If so, how did they drive during the assessment? If not, why not?

 

[idun]

 These flashing numbers are terrible and often wrong I know of three that are well out. There is one near my friend's  says '30' as if I am speeding even when I am going at twenty, which I usually am, as I have to, due to road conditions, because sometimes 30 can be too fast.

So these 'helpful' people writing this down, may be noting sheer nonsense. So who knows if these drivers are speeding anyway. The police should not take these tell tales seriously as they may well be simply be telling tales. IF the drivers are speeding, then set up a proper legal speed camera and catch them at it, there is no excuse to speed in built up areas. I would rather proper restrictions in built up areas and motorways with no speed limit...... but that is just me!

[PaulT]

In a number of places the 30mph speed limits have been reduced to 20mph - I wonder if this is due to drivers not sticking to the 30mph limit so the authorities reduce it to 20mph. So those who exceed get those who comply penalised.

Personally, I would up speeding points to 6 so that 2 occasions and banned instead of 4. Why did a certain Lib Dem MP (oh ex) get his wife to take the points because he had already been done three times.

[Frederick]

[quote user="idun"] These flashing numbers are terrible and often wrong I know of three that are well out. There is one near my friend's  says '30' as if I am speeding even when I am going at twenty, which I usually am, as I have to, due to road conditions, because sometimes 30 can be too fast.

So these 'helpful' people writing this down, may be noting sheer nonsense. So who knows if these drivers are speeding anyway. The police should not take these tell tales seriously as they may well be simply be telling tales. IF the drivers are speeding, then set up a proper legal speed camera and catch them at it, there is no excuse to speed in built up areas. I would rather proper restrictions in built up areas and motorways with no speed limit...... but that is just me!

[/quote]

Exactly Idun  

 I don't want to go into discussing the calibration of speedometers in makes of cars but there will be a difference in readings

Even sat navs speed indication  and car speedometers don't give the same reading  The calibration of these light up signs will not be compatible with every car that approaches it .It is inevitable that a person who may be driving at 30 according to his speedo will light one up even if is shows just 32  .

The fact that the drivers involved were taking people to hospital is incidental ...The only point I was making is that the drivers concerned were subjected to an action started by  a few retired who sit out in the street and take and pass car  numbers to the County Police if a driver "Lights one up " 

It just happened that the drivers were Hospital Car Service drivers who have the village in their area to collect patients from and are peeved that they have had letters from the Police  and are going to give the village a miss. Its up to them if they want to go there or not  they give their time free and voluntary.

 It could just as easy be the  washing machine repair man who gets a letter and now  also wants to give the place a miss. ... IMO the action of these people sitting in the street with their pens.......human nature being what it is .......will end putting off  people  who provide a service to the village from going there   Most  HCS volunteer drivers are retired themselves and are not  speeding through  the village  they go there to pick up people for appointments  and have decided not to to run the gauntlet of these road side chair sitting pensioners ... Police action is one thing ...this is another and  we can do without it IMO

[woolybanana]

Would they, one wonders, take the number of a police car if it lit the light?

[YCCMB]

There has been a similar initiative on one of the roads I take to work. The local homeowners have been given a speed gun, which one must assume IS correctly calibrated, and they stand by the road sign and check the speed of motorists. If the speed limit is exceeded, motorists get a letter from the authorities, which states that they could, in fact, have received a speeding penalty but the county ( not the village/town/hamlet or whatever) is adopting a "yellow card" policy, and if subsequently the driver is caught speeding again it will lead to an automatic fine.

I suspect that whatever your friends are claiming to have seen is a similar arrangement.

I would question whether you/they seriously believe that letters would be sent to people based on the say-so of a bunch of pensioners in deck chairs watching a wrongly-calibrated sign. The police, I imagine, would be on a hiding to nothing if they were to impose fines or prosecute if this were the case, and whilst they are sometimes not as sharp as one would like, they're generally not completely without common sense.

You seem singularly determined to stick up for people who are, whether acting as volunteer drivers for hospital appointments or fixing a washing machine, simply breaking the speed limit. It's everyone's fault except the people actually committing the offence, it would seem. I cannot honestly imagine a situation where any tradesman or business, especially in the current economic climate, would say "oh, I can't come to fix your plumbing, because in order to get there I will be obliged to stick to the legal speed limit" but maybe in your neck of the woods they are all keen to cut off their noses to spite their faces, and earning a living is of secondary importance to being at liberty to drive around like Lewis Hamilton.

[Salty Sam]

Following a reduction of the 30 mph to 20 mph in my village, there has been a similar initiative. The police have also been busy with their radar traps with apparent success.

I use the road to and fro through the village sometimes several times a day and so far, haven't received any letter addressing my excessive speed nor been subject to being caught in a radar trap.

Just a matter of luck? No, probably more to do with sticking to the speed limit imposed.

[PaulT]

[quote user="Frederick"]

 I don't want to go into discussing the calibration of speedometers in makes of cars but there will be a difference in readings

[/quote]

No, let's discuss speedometer readings.

The regulations require speedometers to be accurate to +10% (note there is no minus 10%).

Therefore, in a 30 mph limit a speedometer reading of 30mph will mean that the car will be travelling at between 27mph and 30mph. Similarly at 70mph the car will be travelling between 63mph and 70mph. Note that Sat Nav will show a truer speed but influenced by terrain.

Therefore, anyone exceeding a speed limit will have their speedo showing a greater speed than the limit and in some cases the speed limit + 10% plus a bit more.

The Laws of the land lay down speed limits and I always find it fascinating that some people want to pick and choose which laws they obey. 'Oh it is OK for me to break the speed limit but a burglar who broke in to my house informed me that he obeys the speed limit laws but does not the burglary laws so I said "we have something in common"'. Would that person want the burglar caught and prosecuted? Then perhaps the burglar would want the other person caught and prosecuted for speeding.

A village with elderly residents will mean that some take longer to cross the road so a speeding car is a real danger to them - always amazes me how people trying to protect their environment from wrong doers are cast as the bad people and should allow the wrong doers to carry on.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Frederick"] They pass the numbers to Police HQ and out go the  warning letters saying any other similar  report coming in from the village and  they will  prosecute.

[/quote]

There must have been some error in the relating of this tale to yourself as I just dont believe the above.

I could report someone 100 times for speeding and they would never be prosecuted, these radar pedagogique (sorry dont know the name in english) are not calibrated (or at least regularly) or certified for use in evidence, in any case they would need to to be operated by a trained police officer, there is another clue, used by, these things are autonomous.

I believe that a Police officer can attest in court to what he estimated a vehicles speed to be although perhaps it needs a corroborating officers testimony, I know the same attestation from a member of the public, even a retired police officer is inadmissable.

Frankly it is inconcievable that the statements of lay people watching the display from an autonomous uncertified and uncalibrated piece of street furniture will result in a driver being prosecuted, the Police may however decide to take up station there with their radar guns especially if there have been many incidents of speeding and good for them, that is good use of the technology and the miscreants had been warned.

They have one in my village in the UK  and many around me in France and I think that they are a great idea, they also are very accurate although thats not the same as certified and calibrated within a periodic testing regime, they even record very accurately my speed on my bike yet when you look at the plain perspex panel there is not a radar or ultrasound emitter visible, i think there is an infra red video camera behind there with some trick imaging software, in any case a very clever and good piece of technology.

[Quillan]

Having been 'done' more than once for speeding in France all I can say is the limit is the limit. These devices are there to tell you that you what speed you are doing so you can see if you are going to fast. Irrespective of if your speedo etc is accurate or not it is the speed on the sign that is important. If it says you are doing 52 kph then slow down after all what's 2kph difference going to make to the time of your journey?

It appears this is not the only incident of this happening. Talking to a local Gendarm the other day they have had many reports from people living near the one in Quillan, the result, they have turned it off. As he said with people keep phoning up or dropping in it is burning up valuable time when they, the Gendarmes, should be out doing more important things. I have also noticed a few other places where they have been turned off today on my way to Carcassonne. I also noticed they have put up a panel saying there is a speed camera ahead where I got 'done' twice. Have to say that has made me more careful and I now am extra vigilant as to my speed.

[idun]

  Another thought strikes me, and maybe it is 'me', because I am a bit odd, but when I have passengers in the car, I like to give as smooth a ride as possible, and that often means driving rather slower than I might if on my own. In fact I take pride in my passengers having a comfortable ride....... and comments from Mr Idun telling me that I could be which ever gear and could go faster on X bit of road, are of no interest to me, as I even like to give him a smooth ride.....

Years ago, I saw kids in a school taxi being thrown around. I knew one of these kids, as he is the handicapped son of someone I know and all the kids were on their way home from a special school. Not that the kids could complain, none of them could, but I did.

So surely IF someone is taking people to hospital, wouldn't they want their passengers to have a safe and smooth journey?????

[Salty Sam]

For the benefit of the non-believers: [url]http://news.communityspeedwatch.co.uk/[/url]

[quote]The

Police Support Volunteers will be the Police link to the Community

Speed Watch Scheme coordinators and will provide all the administration

support necessary to enable the schemes to succeed. This will include

receiving all the details of offending vehicles, completing PNC checks

and sending the warning letters to the registered keepers.[/quote]

On the question of calibration, the equipment used is identical as that

used by the police but with the addition of a removable speed display

panel and as the equipment is provided by the police, do you honestly believe they are going to use uncalibrated devices?

[Benjamin]

I admit to double checking the date when Freddo posted.

I wonder what a "technicality" lawyer (the ones who all the celebs and footballers use to get them off speeding and d/d offences) would make of this.

Field day springs to mind. Just obey the limit. It makes for a more stress free journey.

[idun]

I know that the one near my friend's house is wrong. My car is not that far 'off'. At 20mph it flashes as if I am speeding and when I am driving at 20 I am usually in 2nd, and need to be on that bit of road. So should I tell someone????? I must say I find it more than irritating that it flashes me unnecessarily.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Salty Sam"]For the benefit of the non-believers: [url]http://news.communityspeedwatch.co.uk/[/url]

[quote]The Police Support Volunteers will be the Police link to the Community Speed Watch Scheme coordinators and will provide all the administration support necessary to enable the schemes to succeed. This will include receiving all the details of offending vehicles, completing PNC checks and sending the warning letters to the registered keepers.[/quote]

On the question of calibration, the equipment used is identical as that used by the police but with the addition of a removable speed display panel and as the equipment is provided by the police, do you honestly believe they are going to use uncalibrated devices?
[/quote]

Yes I am well aware of the community speedwatch scheme with the volunteers, they do it in my village although there is always a special policeman/woman in attendance, they do indeed use the police handheld radar guns but that is completely different from the tale told by the OP: where he/she asserts that the speed advisory sign is being used.

The speed adversary signs which light up when approached and show your speed on entering these villages so you can drop down to the limit .  Have elderly residents sitting on garden chairs close to them and they take the numbers of any cars that light it up as they have to be over the limit to switch it on . They pass the numbers to Police HQ and out go the  warning letters saying any other similar  report coming in from the village and  they will  prosecute

 

I appreciate that the hand held devices used by these schemes are identical to the police ones and are calibrated, its a necessity for them to be able to prosecute although I have my doubts whether they ever have or will, but are you saying that inside one of these radar pedagogiques (still dont know the name) there is exactly the same stuff as a speed camera or hand held police radar, certified, calibrated and able to be used in a prosecution?

Even for a cyclist? [:-))]

[Salty Sam]

A quick telephone call to a man who knows, advises the latest fixed illuminated speed advisory signs can work independently or linked to a radar gun, thereby replicating the actual speed recorded by the gun.

In the OP's experience it could well be the motorists spot wisened OAP's armed with clip board and pencil, but fail to note man with radar gun hidden behind tree. Might even have attended the gendarme school of sneaky-beaky tricks.

[EuroTrash]

So basically what it comes down to is that these volunteer drivers think that because they are clocking up brownie points in heaven for taking people to hospital, the village should be so grateful to them that it gives them a special dispensation to speed through it showing complete disrespect for the law and the villagers. Are the villagers allowed to report other drivers as long as they leave the volunteers alone, or should everybody be allowed to speed through the village?

"Result the drivers are going refuse to go to the villages to take people into hospital" - sounds a bit like emotional blackmail - what lovely people, not.

[Rabbie]

I have been following this thread with interest and it seems to me that there is a lot of jumping to conclusions not completely justified by the evidence we have. None of us actually know that the volunteer drivers are speeding excessively or not. It may be that the advisory camera is situated at the boundary of the speed limit so the drivers concerned may be in the process of slowing down when they trigger the camera. The camera may be set at a low limit. The volunteer drivers are just that -volunteers - and are perfectly entitled to pick and choose which villages they go to. It is after all still a free country despite the presence of self appointed busy bodies who take it on themselves to act as law enforcement agents. 

[EuroTrash]

Point taken, but it would be very stupid of the police to threaten prosecution if there was no offence being committed, wouldn't it?

The self appointed busy bodies are trying to protect their own village, is it being a busy body to do that? I thought being a busy body meant interfering in something that isn't your business. A lot of villages make hand-made signs with pathetic pleas for motorists to slow down and look out for our children and our old folk, it shouldn't be necessary when there is a speed limit in force. If these villages seem they need to take it a step further, presumably (though one shouldn't presume) it's because the residents have serious ongoing concerns over speeding and it's being done with the support of the community. I don't suppose they sit there breathing in exhaust fumes for fun, there are better things to do with your retirement.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Salty Sam"]A quick telephone call to a man who knows, advises the latest fixed illuminated speed advisory signs can work independently or linked to a radar gun, thereby replicating the actual speed recorded by the gun.

In the OP's experience it could well be the motorists spot wisened OAP's armed with clip board and pencil, but fail to note man with radar gun hidden behind tree. Might even have attended the gendarme school of sneaky-beaky tricks.
[/quote]

 

Hey thats real smart as well as sneaky [:)]

You see the avertissement that you are speeding and when the fine comes through the post the speed is the same.

FWIW I am all for this kind of policing, the signs are there which probably makes most people aware of their speed and the locality, those who ignore it get a warning, next step is the occasional police presence hopefully very visible like they are in my village, it is after all a safety measure, they stop most of the errant vehicles and give them a warning, others may have recieved theirs through the post, the ones that get booked are the ones that ignore the warnings both visual, verbal and written.

This must be very effective in terms of how many people it slows down compared to how many are booked and hence is far removed from the usual criticism of revenue generation.

I think that its right to listen to and involve the local community.

[Frederick]

The volunteers work in pairs at an identified location selected by local

communities in consultation with XXXX  Police, provided they are

within 30 mph and 40 mph limits. They record speeds of motorists in a

log and offenders travelling at excess speeds will be identified from

the data provided and sent a ‘yellow’ letter of advice which will also

ask for their co-operation in the future.

A maximum of two warning letters, along with safety information, will be

sent to offenders and if they are caught speeding again, they will be

targeted for enforcement by police, where appropriate. The aim, however,

is for the presence of the Speedwatch volunteers out on the streets to

make drivers think twice about their driving habits and slow down.

Above quote  from the Police regarding the working of Speedwatch   ...... No speed guns involved...... They just watch the sign for it to light up .

  

As already stated  drivers  have a choice not to go to the villages if they don't want to and as one who got a letter said to me   " I can do without the grief "