are these gassing stories credible?

[mint]

At regular intervals, stories circulate of people travelling in camping-cars and sleeping in caravans, etc that tell of thieves piping gas into their vehicles and stealing their valuables.

It even happened to Jenson Button and his girlfriend, if I remember rightly.

Are these stories a lot of gas or can these things really happen?  How easy or otherwise is it for sufficient gas to be piped into a vehicle to render the occupants unconscious but, presumably, not kill them as then they wouldn't be able to tell their stories?

I raise this topic because a couple of days ago, there was a story about a family of 2 adults and 2 children who were purportedly gassed and had possessions stolen whilst travelling to Disneyland in Paris.  Apparently no one suffered any ill-effects apart from the father developing a rash on a leg.

What kind of gas would have been used?  One that didn't give the adults headaches and didn't harm the children?

I'm just curious, that's all, I do not own a vehicle of this description and have no intention of ever using one.

[PaulT]

In the floor of caravans, and I presume motor homes, there are holes with grilles over that I believe are for and leakage of propane or butane gas to seep out as it is heavier than air. So presumably, a gas that will render occupants unconscious that is lighter than air could be introduced via these holes.

Certainly, I have read in numerous publications about this.

[EuroTrash]

It's been done to death on motorhome forums - these stories have popped up every year for decades.

The general consensus is that even if the perpetrators are trained anaesthetists, they're unlikely to be able to reliably adminster just the right amount of gas to knock people out, without knocking them out permanently. Even anaesthetists need to know your body weight to work out the amount of gas they need - these people don't even know how many people are in the van.

Plus, to use proper anaesthetic gases, they would first need to be able to get hold of them plus it would probably cost more than the value of what they manage to nick.

Most people agree these stories are a result of people drinking too much wine, forgetting to lock the doors and windows when they go to bed, then waking up with a thudding head, finding their valuables gone and thinking "Oh 5hit how do we explain this to the insurance company? I know, ..."

International lorry drivers sometimes tell the same tale, again it is often suspected to be an insurance job where they've arranged for their mates to relieve them of a valuable load.

[mint]

It is as I thought, ET, but I didn't want to jump to conclusions without giving people the benefit of the doubt.

So, do the insurance companies still fall for this or do they say on your way and your increased premium starts the very next time you want to renew?

[EuroTrash]

I don't know, I guess it has to be hacked out case by case.

A couple of random points that I remember reading on forums or in motorhome mags that I found interesting at the time:

One year they were very much in the news and a journalist managed to interview a representative of the French gendarmes or police, can't remember which, and as I recall he was very careful what he said and wouldn't be drawn into expressing a view on whether he thought they were genuine incidents or hoaxes, all he would say was that the gendarmes/police are obliged to take seriously and investigate every criminal incident that's reported to them.

Then there was one case that looked absolutely typical - a Brit couple who came across as, well shall we say the type you wouldn't want next to you on a campsite, claimed they'd been gassed on their first night in France, bling gone money gone camera gone, the lot (why do you even bring your bling on a camping holiday). There didn't seem to be any doubt that they'd drunk far too much, whether they admitted it voluntarily or whether it showed up when they were tested for traces of gas I don't know. Anyway their insurance company said No, and this couple got really stubborn and wouldn't let go. They called in all kinds of experts and had tests done, and eventually they got a report from some expert or another that found minute traces of some unidentified chemical on some surface or other in the van. As far as they were concerned that clinched it. I don't know what the end of the story was, I followed it for a while then I think I got bored. Of course just because they were an unlovely couple doesn't prove they were dishonest. And then there's the issue that having read and believed these stories, then if you do get robbed while you're sound asleep you might genuinely believe you must have been gassed. I mean, how do you know?

For the record I must have spent well over a thousand nights in a motorhome all over France, on motorhome aires and campsites and private land and by the roadside (but I do avoid motorway aires), and never been gassed nor robbed. I remember once mentioning to a very posh motorhome couple I met that I regularly stayed on motorhome aires and they were shocked, told me I mustn't - because on their first trip to France they'd stayed on an aire and the wife's handbag had been stolen from the front passenger seat while they'd been sleeping at the back of the van. WELL IF YOU LEAVE A HANDBAG ON VIEW IN THE FRONT SEAT BY THE WINDOW AND YOU ASLEEP IN THE BACK, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT, would you do that in the UK? Some people leave their common sense behind when they cross the channel.

[Chancer]

If the stories are credible, given the sheer volume of claims of gassing over the years what is incredible is that there have been no deaths, I would have expected at least 50% of the alleged victims die.

[AnOther]

I believe the experts:

http://www.rcoa.ac.uk/news-and-bulletin/rcoa-news-and-statements/statement-alleged-gassing-motor-vehicles

[mint]

Thank you, Erns.  I thought that this is the sort of thing you'd know about and I was hoping you'd tell me[:)]

Do you know, when we were back in the UK, we were at a "do" in a clergyman's home and he said that this happened to him in France.  So, this sort of incident has been at the back of my mind for years.

I don't like to think that the victims are lying deliberately but, OTOH, what else is there to think?

[EuroTrash]

They might genuinely believe it. Nobody can possibly know what happened while they were asleep and dead to the world. So if you have a choice of believing (a) you have done something embarrasingly stupid and immature and have caused yourself a lot of problems, and (b) you are an innocent victim of a dastardly crime; which would your subconscious encourage you to believe? Nobody want to admit to having been a knob, not even to themselves.

[AnOther]

Maybe somebody somehow slipped them some Rohypnol, it's as credible a theory as alleged mass non lethal gassing !

[Gluestick]

Well, Minty, we did explore this topic some time back...

A major client, runs a fleet of very specialised recovery and delivery trucks, throughout Europe.

He is also listed as a Forensic Expert Witness by the Home Office and other EU bodies. Not a bloke to make stuff up.

His drivers regularly "Park Up", when their tacho (Tachograph) informs them they are out of driving hours.

I have known him for many many years.

ALL of his pan-continental trucks are fitted with noxious gas alarms in the cab and driver's sleeping "loft". And special security locks and bars, installed, temporarily, for sleeping hours.

See Here:

See Here:

[cajal]

[quote user="AnOther"]Maybe somebody somehow slipped them some Rohypnol, it's as credible a theory as alleged mass non lethal gassing !

[/quote]

Observing the time at which you posted your reply, do you think you might benefit yourself from a dose of the above?  Or have you been and procured yourself a paper-round?

regards

cajal

[andyh4]

I suspect the whole thing started as a translation error.

Brit Tourist: We got into the caravan at midnight. We were gassed. When we woke up, all our valuables had gone.

Gendarme: You were gassed? Zut! never heard of that before. I will file a report.

[Flynn]

"Rohypnol abuse causes a number of adverse effects, including drowsiness, dizziness, loss of motor control, lack of coordination, slurred speech, confusion, and gastrointestinal disturbances"

Sounds like a good night out to me....

[mint]

andy and Flynn [:D]

[cajal]

[quote user="Flynn"]"Rohypnol abuse causes a number of adverse effects, including drowsiness, dizziness, loss of motor control, lack of coordination, slurred speech, confusion, and gastrointestinal disturbances"[/quote]

Certain posters on here causes a number of adverse effects, including drowsiness,

dizziness, loss of motor control, lack of coordination, slurred speech,

confusion, and gastrointestinal disturbances. You know who you are.

regards

cajal

[AnOther]

[quote user="Gluestick"]ALL of his pan-continental trucks are fitted with noxious gas alarms in the cab and driver's sleeping "loft". And special security locks and bars, installed, temporarily, for sleeping hours.[/quote]Locks and bars are simple and sensible security precautions but specifying 'noxious' gas detection - by definition harmful to living things or injurious to health - implies that whatever this mythical gas is, and given the alleged number and variety of instances in which it's supposedly been used, it defies both common sense and logic that it has yet to kill anyone.

Who knows, maybe they were installed to assuage fears of drivers spooked by the unproven anecdotes.

If your man assumes to challenge the carefully measured opinion of an august body like the Royal College of Anaesthetists on the matter then as far as I'm concerned that puts his credibility firmly in the toilet.

BTW these stories have been floating around since the early 90's when US forces personnel in the Philippines claimed to have fallen victim.

When somebody is physically apprehended attempting to administer this substance, as surely they must one day, then I'll believe it, until then it remains in the realm of the urban myth.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="AnOther"] specifying 'noxious' gas detection - by definition harmful to living things or injurious to health - implies that whatever this mythical gas is, and given the alleged number and variety of instances in which it's supposedly been used, it defies both common sense and logic that it has yet to kill anyone.[/quote]

Did I or indeed any other poster state people had been killed?

Answer: err, NO.

Noxious: definition:

[quote]

adjective

Harmful or injurious to health or physical well-being:

noxious fumes.

[/quote]

Interestingly, the some manufacturers of gas detectors designed for truck cabs and sleeping areas, all describe their products as "Noxious" gas detectors.

[quote]If your man assumes to challenge the carefully measured opinion of an august body like the Royal College of Anaesthetists on the matter then as far as I'm concerned that puts his credibility firmly in the toilet.[/quote]

Now where did I suggest he did??? [8-)]

[quote]When somebody is physically apprehended attempting to administer this substance, as surely they must one day, then I'll believe it, until then it remains in the realm of the urban myth.

[/quote]

He, naturally, meets many other pan-European HGV drivers on ferries: no doubt, as a sensible, balanced employer, his view was to manage contingent risk.

But I forgot; as a logistics expert, managing ten thousand RoRo movements per minute, you have intimate knowledge and experience of all such matters..........

[Www]

However...........

See here:

[andyh4]

GS wrote:

ALL of his pan-continental trucks are fitted with noxious gas alarms in the cab and driver's sleeping "loft".

Sorry GS but no matter how well you know and respect the owner of this firm no such pan noxious detector exists except perhaps in the depths of a university or forensics laboratory - and even then it would require a human to analyse the results from the mass spectrometer and or gas chromatograph to tell you what the noxious material might be. By which time the perps would not only have knocked out their victim, but would be several kms down the road with the goods.

He maybe has installed detectors for a specific or a couple of specific materials but a pan-"noxious gas" detector does not exist.

Draeger - probably world experts in gas measurement and alarms - have detectors but they have to be loaded with material specific detectors and for example in a mine they will typically run tandem detectors for methane and carbon monoxide. Neither of these would show if ether or nitrous oxide were introduced and you would need two different detectors for these gases (and possibly a different detector box). If your perp then decides to use a different gas then such detectors would be as much use as a chocolate fire guard.

[Chancer]

From your link:

 

I've got one of these fitted to the centre console, a "Nerus LPG Gas Attack Alarm with Ether Alert". It was there when I bought the truck.



I never actually activate it because as anyone with even the most basic understanding of chemistry will confirm, outside of Batman films there is no such thing as knockout gas. No doubt the previous owner fitted it after yet another of his drivers spunked his running money playing "Adders and Ladders" on the Dover-Calais ferry and then made up a tall tale to cover it up.

Says it all doesn't it!

Still makes money for a lot of people so contributes to the economy, the downside is the amount of Police/Gendarme time taken up, the insurers deserve to have theirs wasted!

 

What we need to fear is that the BIL of either a French politician or lobbyist will decide their is money to be made making and selling the things, before you can say merde it will become French law that all cars, trucks, motorcycles and bicycles should have one fitted, fine for non-compliance €1 million [:D] then the Chinese can flood the market while the hapless French company are scratching their nuts wondering how are we actually going to make and ship these things while watching the competent Chinese make hay while the sun shines, the implementation of the law will be put back multiple times to meet their new scheduled productions dates all of which are missed, finally when everyone already has a Chinese version in their vehicle with their (not) NF gilets, alcohol-testers, smoke alarms, machin bidule truc the law will come into operation with a fine of zero, nada for non compliance [:D]

 

Now if the above didnt sound so familiar you would be forgiven for thinking that I had been gassed in my sleep [:)]

[AnOther]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

Did I or indeed any other poster state people had been killed?

Answer: err, NO.[/quote]And that's the point isn't it, it's beyond credibility that such a gas, if it indeed exists, would not have killed or at least significantly harmed somebody by now. The Moscow incident demonstrates the high potential for lethal outcomes from such tactics and presumably they used whatever they thought would do the job with as little collateral damage as possible.

[quote user="Gluestick"]Interestingly, the some manufacturers of gas detectors designed for truck

cabs and sleeping areas, all describe their products as "Noxious" gas

detectors.[/quote]That's just naive and since nobody seems to have a clue as to what this gas actually is  it's difficult to see how one engineers a detector for it, how would you propose testing such a device ?

[quote user="Gluestick"]If your man assumes to challenge the carefully measured opinion of an august body like the Royal College of Anaesthetists on the matter then as far as I'm concerned that puts his credibility firmly in the toilet.

Now where did I suggest he did??? [8-)][/quote]

By telling us that he's installed detectors in his trucks which infers that he thinks he knows better than the RCoA ?

[quote user="Gluestick"]

But I forgot; as a logistics expert, managing ten thousand RoRo movements per minute, you have intimate knowledge and experience of all such matters..........[/quote]Sarcasm is the last resort of those who have lost their argument.

Ask your man if he has documented proof that out of his thousands of detectors just ONE of the has EVER actually either registered or prevented a gas attack, I think we can all guess the answer.

[Gluestick]

AnOther:

I owe you a grovelling apology!

I was extremely tired after two long days and muddled you with another member.

[:(]

One interesting item from Renault Trucks.........

See Here:

[EuroTrash]

I think most motorhomes have gas detectors don't they? Mine certainly does. But it's not in case you get "gassed" by a criminal, it's in case you have a gas leak in your gas supply to your cooker or water heater or whatever. So maybe that's another question, would this anaesthetic gas set of a propane/butane gas detector?

[Chancer]

Finally, since gas attacks on drivers are becoming more common, Renault Trucks can also supply a gas detector. Connected to a 12 V/24 V outlet in the, it warns the driver in the event of any common asphyxiating gas being detected.

 

And there you have it! - Never let the truth get in the way of scaring people into compliance and spending money unecessarily.

 

It works from the tiniest trader on a street corner right up to governments invading other countries, W.M.D. etc.

[andyh4]

would this anaesthetic gas set of a propane/butane gas detector?

I thought I had made that clear above ET, the answer is no it would not unless they were trying to knock you out with LPG.