La Communaute Universelle (marriage contract)

[Downunder]

Has anyone used this when buying a property in France?  Apparently it came into force in France on 1st September 1992.

If we did use it prior to a purchase can anyone tell me if on the death of the first spouse they could then sell the property without children inheriting.  In other words can the survivor do with the property what ever they want without being answerable to siblings?

WE are also second time around married so would this make a difference?

All very complex and confusing but something we would wish to sort out before making the move.

Thanks for any help you good people might be able to give.

 

 

[Teamedup]

I don't think that anything 'came into force'. Look back over recent threads, as this has been discussed. And before trying to use this you would need very good legal advice from at least one notaire. And children could end up challenging this.

[Downunder]

[quote]I don't think that anything 'came into force'. Look back over recent threads, as this has been discussed. And before trying to use this you would need very good legal advice from at least one notaire....[/quote]

Thank you for your response.  I sourced this information from a text of a lecture given by Martin Scannall, partner and Avocat a la Cour to the member of STEP Ireland and FILA in Dublin on 15th April 2003 so I assumed he would know what he was talking about.  I do understand we would need to take legal advice and I have read through previous postings but to my knowledge no-one has mentioned this particular contract.  I was just hoping someone might have done so and be willing to share their knowledge. 

In Martin Scannall's report he states "This technique devised with the assistance of Counsel in London and CRIDON (Centre de Recherches, d'Information et de Documentation Notaries) in Lyon takes advantage of the Hague Convention on the Law Applicable to Matrimonial Regimes of 14th March 1978 which came into force in France on 1st September l992." there is more but I think that's sufficient for now

Our situation is quite complex as are others I know and to be forewarned is forearmed hence my enquiry.  I also thought it might be help to others who are struggling with the inheritance laws.  If I do find any further information I'll be happy to pass it on.

Thanks once again for your reply.

[Will]

Yes, a lot of people do this when buying a property - you can also do it afterwards. There is a bit of an urban myth that it only applies to non-French nationals because it goes in the face of established French practice, but if you look at the public notices in French local newspapers (one of the things that is required by the process) you will see that a heck of a lot of French-born people are doing it.

Be careful, it isn't right for everybody, so do take proper legal advice.

And yes, it should work for second marraiges and you can sell the property before children inherit, but that will only work in your favour if you move away from France as children still have first claim on any assets of French residents.

[Millymollymandy]

We have changed our marriage regime to Communaute Universelle. However, we don't have children. From what I have read about it on notaires' websites, it's generally geared towards the older married couple without children.

Without kids it is straightforward - the couple own everything (in France) jointly, if you get divorced (in France) all your assets (biens) are split 50:50 and on the death of one spouse the surviving spouse gets everything (in France) without paying ANY inheritance tax.

However strongly advise you to get legal advice if you have children.

[Athene]

[quote]Has anyone used this when buying a property in France? Apparently it came into force in France on 1st September 1992. If we did use it prior to a purchase can anyone tell me if on the death of the f...[/quote]

Hi!

we went to see our notaire about this very thing yesterday. We got married earlier this year and seem to be in the same situation as yourselves in that we would want the property to go to the surviving partner without any tax to pay. Our notaire said that we really should have got this done before we remarried but we maybe will be able to get away with it as we are only secondary residents in France and got married in England. She seems to think that had we married in France, it would be too late to apply this now. However, we will know more on Monday when she has done her research. So if you would like me to tell you more I will.

Best wishes

Athene

 

[Downunder]

[quote]Hi! we went to see our notaire about this very thing yesterday. We got married earlier this year and seem to be in the same situation as yourselves in that we would want the property to go to the sur...[/quote]

Hi Athene  Yes please, I would be delighted to hear the results of your visit.  Now I come to think of it I now begin to understand what a French friend of ours told us a long time ago when she missed out on inheriting anything from her father's estate.  It appears he entered into a marriage contract (I thought she meant they went to a church but totally misunderstood what she was trying to explain to a dumb Aus/Pom)at the age of 86 with his second wife and our friend, sadly, didn't inherit a penny or should I say a euro!  I only say this because her circumstances are dire and even a little would have helped her a great deal.  In my siblings case they are very well heeled and don't need whatever is left when we've finished living it up

 

 

[Tourangelle]

Athene, I think I know what problem you might have.  In France if you don't get married with a contract from the outset, you have to wait until two years after your marriage to change.  If you got married in England but then moved to France immediately, your marriage would be considered to be a French marriage and in absence of a contract, you are automatically considered to be married owning half each of what you acquire after the marriage. Is that right?

I think there is some info on this in FAQ tontine clause.

[Franglais24]

Hi,

The way that I understand it, from our talks with solicitors and notaires, is that *only* our house is owned Universelle, and that this should be defined at the time of purchase, that is, it would be expensive for us to change it to Universelle afterwards. I recall that this part of the buying process cost us £300, including preliminary legal advice.

It therefore appears that there are many different options, potential for a lot of confusion, and the costs associated with getting it "wrong" will undoubtably outweigh the cost of your gettting legal advice ASAP.

F24.

[Athene]

[quote]Hi, The way that I understand it, from our talks with solicitors and notaires, is that *only* our house is owned Universelle, and that this should be defined at the time of purchase, that is, it woul...[/quote]

Hi all!

I promised to reply - well here is what we are doing! We bought our house several years ago with a Tontine on it which would pass the house on to the surviving partner when one of us died but there would also be punitive tax to pay by the partner! So we are going for this universal community agreement which will pass the house onto the surviving partner without payment of any tax. The kids will have to pay the tax when they inherit after us but we will not be around to hear them moan! Well I sincerely hope not anyway! We got married in May in England and apparently it would have been better to have announced our intention to have this kind of agreement then but it is still possible to do it now!

I hope this is helpful!

[Athene]

[quote]Hi all! I promised to reply - well here is what we are doing! We bought our house several years ago with a Tontine on it which would pass the house on to the surviving partner when one of us died but...[/quote]

I omitted to say that the Tontine has to be wiped out first by the notaire before he/she puts in place the Universal Comunity agreement.

[Teamedup]

Athene, did you get your children's permission to change your marriage regime?

[Athene]

[quote]Athene, did you get your children's permission to change your marriage regime?[/quote]

Hi!

no we didn't as we consider that a house we bought together when they had long since left home is our business not theirs. It is not necessary to get this permission for a CU contract. We are both on our second marriage and we have each two children from our first marriages. All the children know that apart from certain small family things that are to go to individuals, everything else in the way of houses and possesions will be split equally four ways! This contract is not cheap though and the notaire's fees are reflected in how much your house is worth on the open market. We now have it in place and with the very minimum of fuss, all the notaire needed to do it was the L'Acte part of the sale contact.

I hope this has been helpful? Do not hesitate to ask me if you have any other problems and I will do my best to answer them.

Best Wishes

Athene

[Tourangelle]

Hi Athene

I don't want to be a spanner in the works, but have you adopted each others children? 

This is how I understand it.  If you have CU, even if it is just relating to the house, when one person dies, the other owns it outright.  The remaining person cannot disinherit their children.  If you have two children, I think they get a third each, by French law, there is nothing you could do about it.  The person can only dispose of the remaining third.  So you could only leave your step children half of a third.  On which they would have to pay enormous tax, because they are not blood relatives.  Assuming your four children all get on brilliantly, and work it out among themselves, it is still a difficult situation. 

I'm sure lots of people out there know more about this than me, but it seems cu can be very complicated with second marriages. 

Jane

[Athene]

[quote]Hi Athene I don't want to be a spanner in the works, but have you adopted each others children? This is how I understand it. If you have CU, even if it is just relating to the house, when one per...[/quote]

Hi Jane,

what you say is not what the notaire has said, so I am going to stick with her say so!

 

[Teamedup]

Athene,  if you live in France, then it has everything to do with your children no matter what age, that is the way it is here. Your children could attack the estate and claim their parents half of it when that parent dies. I'm not saying that they will, but one cannot disinherit kids here and the ground you have put yourself on may not be as safe or in fact sure as you have been led to believe.

[Lavenderlady]

This is my first marriage but my husband's second. He has 3 sons (grown up) from his first marriage, we have no children between us.

We have been advised not to do 'communauté universelle' but to go for 'donation entre époux au dernier vivant'. Anyone got any views on this?

Thanks

[Frenchy]

Hi Lavender Lady, We are in the exact situation as you. My husband has two children, I have none. We were advised to have the Communaunt Universelle. May I ask why you were advised not to do this?   P.S. Sorry about the font size of my post, I don't know what the problem is.

[Lavenderlady]

Hello Frenchy

In the end our notaire has decided we should go for "communauté partielle s'appliquant aux immeubles situés en France avec clause d'attribution intégrale au profit du survivant des époux".

Quite a mouthful! But I think it makes sense. If you can read French try reading this

http://www.santemagazine.fr/websante/modele_fiche.jsp?file=Fdroits_regimes_de_communaute

I thought it explained it very well. Let me know if you need a translation.

[Freedom]

Lavenderlady,

I would love to have a translation please! Thanks

Leigh

[Frenchy]

Hi Lavender Lady, thank you for your reply. I have been able to make out some of the information on the site you quoted but I still do not understand the difference between the contract you mention and the ordinary Communaute Universelle. We were never advised that there were other options under this regime. Sorry if I seem a bit thick but I just don't understand. Can you tell me if your Notaire specifically advised you against the standard Communaute Universelle? Thank you in advance.

[Inquisitive]

Hi

We (my partner & I) are about to buy a house, and are in a similar position to others regarding wishing the partner to have full control over the property following either of our deaths.  We have been advised by the notaire that the very best way of doing this is to marry prior to signing the final contract under the condition of 'separation des biens'.  After the final contract we will then arrange with the notaire an agreement which gives the longest living all rights.  Tontine, as I understand it, is ok until the surviving partner needs to sell the house, and then they need permission of the deceased partners children.  Although we obviously are researching constantly, this is the advice from the notaire who is handling the house sale.  We do need to decide this very shortly

Any comments, advice, warnings etc as to why this may be the best solution would be very gratefully received.

Claire

[Richardbk]

[quote]Hi We (my partner & I) are about to buy a house, and are in a similar position to others regarding wishing the partner to have full control over the property following either of our deaths. We h...[/quote]

I am not sure what living rights will be 'arranged' .. this is be default the situation when you buy under a separation of assets regime. It simply is a reflection of the laws passed in 2003 that prevent heirs from throwing out the surviving spouse (as used to happen !) - so just make sure your notaire doesn't try to  charge you for something that is already yours by right !

 

regs

 

Richard

 

 

[WJT]

Hi, all I can say is that we were told that if we wanted the surviving spouse to have complete control of the house and do as they wish after the death of first, the only way to achieve this is to either have En-tontine which is very tax prohibitive or have a change of Marriage regime at the time of purchasing our French property. We had the change of marriage regime (Communaute Universal) that was signed at the day of our purchase and was included in the the documents. Our Notaire charged us around 270 euros for doing this. We were given this advise from our English speaking agent, Solicitor and Notaire.

[Redcap]

Exactly the advice we had, and from months of trying to find out anything to the contrary. What we need now is for someone who's changed regime to meet their maker, and we might get to find out if it works!

Regards,

Bob