Who to vote for?

[Russethouse]

I had a rather odd conversation today with my friend Nathalie - I was explaining my doubts about voting and she told me that I should definitely vote Conservative, much better for small business and we really DO NOT WANT any more immigrants, especially any from the Eastern block.(she emphasized this point)

A fair enough view, but she is Lebanese !!

[Tresco]

Hi to Gay. I had a similar conversationwith friends of my son recently, all aged between 22 and 27. "There are too many coming in etc etc". The people speaking were all English men of Asian descent. And like your friend they were referring to people from eastern europe. Well the ins and outs of this are a massively complex issue, and have been for 'indigenous' peoples in England, and also for each group of incomers for at least a century (in England).

I just had a massive batch of newspapers of all ilks brought to me by a friend. What has staggered me is just how low level the print media has sunk in terms of political reporting in the runup to this election. The papers are full of what used to be called 'features', they certainly are not 'news', and many of these things would once have been just gossip snippets, but now they are full page spreads about nothing, perhaps appearance, or some other made up story. It just is not news. It is not even information that is relevant.

Even the letters pages of some papers, in one a letter was printed, an emotive letter yet it was just a lie, the tale as told was impossible, yet the paper printed it as it stood. It all seeps in.

If I was in England, the very last thing I would do, if I was having trouble deciding who to vote for, would be to read a newspaper. In fact I would cancel all subscriptions completely, for the duration of this period, and possibly forever.

tresco

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

The BNP have 118 candidates standing in the UK election,heard their leader on the world at one today,made a load of sense.

 

[Tresco]

For those of us who missed that interview, what were the key points outcast?

tresco.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Do a search under radio 4,find the listen again link and you can hear it for yourself.

 

[Jill<br><br>Jill (99)]

Yes, Hoddy and Gay, I think there is a lot of temptation to spoil papers this election. I certainly won't be voting for the real orange man who has opened an office just down the road from the new Indian Restaurant which had yellow paint sprayed all over the front, just before it opened and which had glaziers vans outside it a couple of days ago when I drove past it. I need to get a list of all the major issues and tick the ones I agree with and see who wins that way. Can't vote Conservative - I'm a European. Can't vote Labour - I'm a European and don't want to be part of the next American State (although, I haven't noticed Americanisation mentioned by anyone in this election. So whereas many don't want to be part of Europe, perhaps more do want to be part of America.) But I do agree with the need for identity cards, which is the main thing I disagree with the Lib Dems for. It is also true that not enough mention has been made about the environment, generally.

As the mother of 2 children set to go to university in 2006 and 2009, I am concerned about top up fees. A friend who is a university lecturer says the universities do need the money, but my view is that it should come from taxes. If the government can pay for people to do nothing, they can also pay for people to get educated, who will then, in turn pay taxes. The government say they want to enable more people to go to university, but they are actually making it harder. If we could have afforded £3000 a year, we could have sent our children to private school. So, rather than enabling ordinary people to allow their children to go to university, the government are really catering for those with private school type incomes to send their children to university. We will do all we can for our children, but it won't be easy - just as it hasn't been for those who helped their children BEFORE top up fees came about.

The trouble is, people will vote Conservative if they don't want labour in and vice versa. What we need is for people to vote for what they really believe in, and I don't think people have been doing. I believe my sister votes labour because she was brought up by labour voting parents and none of them will change, because they don't have minds of their own. So many people vote because their family have traditionally done so. I haven't seen much from other candidates yet, although Michael Howard seems to be writing to me quite a bit! So, I have very little to go on at present.

Incidentally, my 14 year old son commented tonight how TB and MH are like bickering children! I think we should vote for the grown-ups - KNOW ANY?

[Russethouse]

I don't think any one is offering what I believe in ! TB started out offering New Labour in his first term which seemed pretty close - but now ?

BTW Jill I worked out that as Uni fees come out of taxed income it really cost us £15,000 over 3 years and that was without the trips to collect, take back or just visit my daughter ( £50 a time) Luckily she quickly found work in the field she had chosen, I think I would have been very unhappy if she had ended up doing something that hadn't used her qualification and many do.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Gay and jill,I have to disagree with you both on the way you think your childrens education should be paid for.You both do not(gay did not) have to send your kids to uni,it is a personal choice,if someone wants go on to further education fine but let them, not the tax payer pick up the bill.Top up fees a just a start in my opinion.

 

[Miki]

I think that possibly some many members on here might know that I lean towards the socialist aspect of politics but in this election, where by the way, I am registered to vote, I am fascinated by the spin from ALL sides.

You could sail a BF ferry through the gaps in all their spiel. On one hand Mr Howard is saying he will put 20,000 more people in prison, where does that figure come from ? Will he simply go out and get 20,000 more that have been judged and given a non jail sentence, or will he lower the crime to enable judges to gives sentences out ? This is just carrying on from he left off, when he was last in government and no good it did then.

I am a true believer in searching very hard for an alternative to prison for many people. Jail has been around for centuries, does it work ? Well the failure rate, as that is what it is, is that nearly 60% will re-offend within 2 years. And the same figures show that around 60% of drug addicted prisoners that simply have not been through teatment will re-offend straight away. In some states in the USA it is almost an unbelievable rate, up to 90% plus.

In 2000 Chief Inspector of Prisons, Sir David Ramsbotham said this :

Youth prisons have become barbaric warehouses that should be closed immediately.

His comments were made against a background of increasing reports of violence, brutality and death in Britain's young offender institutions. Up to 90 percent of young people leaving prison re-offend within two years.

Ramsbotham, who has become increasingly outspoken in his demands for penal reform, said: 'If I had the power to do it, I would close these places and do it bloody quickly'. He said he was frustrated he did not have the same powers to intervene as other regulatory bodies, such as the Office of the Rail Regulator or the schools inspectorate Ofsted.

He said he had become increasingly irritated by the refusal of the Home Office and the Prison Service to act on his recommendations. Last year he described Feltham, Europe's largest youth jail in west London, as 'rotten to the core' and 'unacceptable in a civilised country'. He told The Observer that, although conditions in the juvenile wing of the prison had improved, they were still appalling for over-18s. The only problem with closing young offender institutions, he said, was that there was nowhere else for the offenders to go.

What happened well sod all as normal. No MP will touch the issue head on for fear of vote losses.

Frances Crook of the Howard League for Penal Reform, which provided evidence for the Portland inquiry, said: 'We all know that locking up young people in long-term institutions is damaging to them and damaging to us all. Because of the high rates of re-offending, we are probably creating more victims of crime this way. If there were 1,000 furry animals being held in these conditions, there would be demonstrations every day.'

Successive Home Secretary's have done nothing and Labour are as much to blame for it.

The Liberal Democrat MP Dr Vincent Cable, chairman of the all-party police group, said some time ago: 'We have to question whether they should be closed altogether because they are doing more harm than good. Despite repeated warnings, nothing has been done to change the situation at all.

Jack Straw lied through his teeth on Question Time the other night when he said that prisoners were re-educated and given skills to help them for when they are released, absolute tosh. In a few prisons, a prisoner may just be lucky enough to have a governor who believes very much in retraining but for many others, they see it purely as a punishment camp, yes you might say, that is what it should be, bread and water and hard beds and 10 to a cell, well all that does is breed re-offenders, simple as that. The excuse is always the same, can't find anyone willing to help the prisoners, we don't have the money etc etc and still the politicians reel out the same drivel and take me, you and everyone else as thick brainless fools whose vote can be bought cheaply by uttering what they feel are the correct words the electorate want to hear.

Even today, I hear that a Tory MP is telling his fellow potential MP's to promise people anything that they want to hear.

It costs far more to keep a person in prison than to educate them (those who would willingly accept it of course) in colleges or University. It surely makes more sense, to all but the most revengeful people, that educating offenders is far, far more beneficial to the country and the people of that country. Why can't this route be taken, well simple really. People have bayed for blood since the Romans and nothing has changed, revenge and the need to see people punished is a far better vote winner than some politician standing up and saying "look, we can educate and rehabilitate that drug addict to not re-offend, we can take the thuggery out of some people by educating them , we can teach them trades, we can give them life skills" but the chances of this person being listened to, has perhaps, as much chance of me getting any support on here.

Best to leave it there, I know what I would do with politicians who promise things but do not carry them out but then I might be seen as a hypocrite.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Maybe the little darlings you speak of in feltham will not be allowed to commit any more burgalries muggings rapes and murders while they are locked up,so while they are inside they are not committing any more crimes on the public.The best thing is if they are kept inside for longer.As for any of them entering someones home at night the home owners should be allowed to blast them to bits,and that would save the state the cost of a trail and the need to feed them in prison,I have had some little.... try to break in my house while the wife and kids where in,and I was away earning an honest living,it hardens one attitude.

[Miki]

It is solely because of bigotted people like you, that it is almost impossible for the penal system to be overhauled.

While there are people, who can only think like that and whose only retort is uttering, that all "offenders are scum" and " lock 'em up and throw the key away" what you have now, is exactly how the future of the country will continue to be.

I repeat, the penal system has been in place for centuries and it hasn't made hardly a scrap of difference and still there are many who keep on mumbling the same boring, sick lines about "I am an honest hard working chap with kids and I deserve to see all the offenders to be locked away"

So under your backward thinking, while they are in Feltham or perhaps another prison, you and your kids are safe. Now unless they are in their forever, one day they will be released, still uneducated, untrained, therefore basically the same person that went in, what is so clever about that ?

We are in the 21st century and it might as well be the 19th century or before, for all the good it does, as the re-offending records show. Do you not see that the system, as it is now, simply does not produce the results it is supposed to ?

Hardened ones thinking you say ! I have been there, seen the tough times and miss the ones no longer here, the difference between you and me is, that I would love for the bad ones to be helped back in to society and become a "normal" working person, whereas you simply prefer to put yourself on some false mantle and call others scum and not worthy. Thinking like that deserves the society it breeds.

Where is the sense in thinking like that ?

There but for the grace of God...........

[Russethouse]

Outcast - What are you going to say to your daughters if they are bright enough and want to go to Uni, or maybe even a Grande Ecole ? 'Oh - you can't go because I don't believe in it' ?

Hasn't it occurred to you that on the whole people who have been to Uni go on to get better paid jobs and pay more tax - we have to get qualified people from somewhere - no doubt you would have lots to say if we had to have more immigrants than we do now ?

Miki, I suppose our attitude to crime must be governed by whether we see it as a symptom of greed or despair or a bit of both. As it happens I think our jails are pretty full so there is no way Micheal Howard could send extra people to prison. If we could think up some suitable punishment for the low life that hit my god daughter, broke her neck and left her for dead, and the car owner who refuses to say who she lent the car to - let me know!!

[Miki]

Gay said" ...Miki, I suppose our attitude to crime must be governed by whether we see it as a symptom of greed or despair or a bit of both. As it happens I think our jails are pretty full so there is no way Micheal Howard could send extra people to prison. If we could think up some suitable punishment for the low life that hit my god daughter, broke her neck and left her for dead, and the car owner who refuses to say who she lent the car to - let me know!!.."

I am not sure Gay, whether you are for or against what I am trying to say ?

Do you think that I would want people like that to roam the streets to do that again ? Or do you think that they should pay their dues to society in a way that will re-educate them to see what they they have done is just not acceptable ?

In the instance of your God daughter, the car owner would have been charged unless of course she had a rock solid alibi then if so, she surely would have been be charged for obstruction and although not being an expert in these matters, I guess she would be charged on other matters. That doesn't help your God daughter I know

I don't know the answers but studies by criminolgy professors, including David Wilson, put up excellent views on how prisons simply have not worked and the matter is getting worse by the decade. Another fact, of 10,000 under 21's in prison, around 80% have a reading age of 11, does it not make some sense to educate these people whilst serving a sentence ? To my mind it should be obligatory....but as the law stands it cannot be enforced and the only thing that can be done to imates, is to stop their tiny weekly wage and before anyone starts, this "standard" money is barely enough for toiletries.

I could fire off facts after facts but if one (and I am not aiming this at you in anyway Gay) wants to persist in wanting the prisons to get tougher and sentencing longer, then there is no point, it is deeply engrained and just as with the politicians, will as far as I can see, stay like that.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Gay,please read what I am saying,if like you say my girls want to go to uni then that is down to them,I would not discourage them but at the same time would hope that they would pay for what they got and not expect a free ride like you think people should,and while you bring up the subject why do you feel like others do that it is necessary to send ones kids to uni,my thought is that they what their kids to be better than the rest ie the plebs.

As for miki,if they do the crime they should do the time,and while they are doing time they cant do the crime.Penal reform why? they get tv ,phone cards to phone home or where ever,up to 50% off the sentence given and if the government was not so soft they would test each one of them for drugs,the thing they take soloist in when inside.There for the grace go....

 

[Miki]

".....As for miki,if they do the crime they should do the time,and while they are doing time they cant do the crime.Penal reform why? they get tv ,phone cards to phone home or where ever,up to 50% off the sentence given and if the government was not so soft they would test each one of them for drugs,the thing they take soloist in when inside.There for the grace go...."

Does nothing ever get through to you? it is tough enough reading your posts, let alone understanding them. Surely I can't be alone in thinking that your posts are a good case on their own for education in itself. Perhaps that's why you are so defensive in your attitude towards your kids and Uni, for some reason you really don't understand the massive benefits of education. You believe you did OK without good education so why should the kids go to Uni, all that money might be wasted, nah the kids don't need education.....

Are the plebs as you like to coin some folk, the educated or the non educated ?

As for your views on the penal system, your points are as irrelevant as ever.

The best you come up with is phone cards, TV and some other ridiculous things.

Anyone like to explain this "the thing they take soloist in when inside" and again this "There for the grace go...."

Education is just so wasted by so many.

[Cjb]

Solace??

[Russethouse]

Outcast, I have posted how much we have contributed and my daughter still needed a student loan which she is repaying - there is nothing 'free' as you put it, about it.

As for crime, I think that for youngsters that 'go wrong' could well benefit from a different approach - prison really won't answer anything much, although some schemes are not monitored well enough, for instance where a victim is awarded a cash amount often the 'guilty' party doesn't actually pay.

I dread to think what the consequences might be for the people (person) who attacked that young mother in Surrey yesterday - she is paralyzed, possibly for ever. There is a time when 'softer ' options are just not appropriate -

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Yes gay but I asked why you felt the need to,a student loan is not paying for the education received.

 

[Russethouse]

Call me old fashioned but I 'feel the need' because I think that as a parent its up to me to do my utmost to allow my offspring to realize their full potential. In this instance I judged that University was the best course.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Gay,sorry to bang on, yes there is a but coming but why do you or did you feel the need(Idid think of PMing you on this subject) and what did you or your kids hope to gain from spending what you did and was that a gain over folks kids who never went,not saying that the same kids never had the chance to go to uni.

Just for the sake of not going on,all I can think of is that people who spend large amounts of money on the kids passage through uni are a bunch of wan`a`be snobs who think that any one from working class(and this includes working class families) are of a lower social order and that a free education gives them a right to a better way of life,the only hope I have is that the more kids that get degrees the more the whole system will be watered down and all the snob value of a degree will be worth nowt.

yours who left school at 15,

and now

 

[Cjb]

And boy, doesn't it show... a great example of why staying on in education can make such a difference. Perhaps your kids would like to go on and do a little better for themselves than you did?

 In my family, my generation are the first to have been to university; fortunately my parents recognised the value of education and it is the education I've received that's enabled me to move to France, secure a respectable and well paid job and provide for my family.

Snobbery? Surely not. Just parents wanting the best opportunities for their kids. As none of our children are likely to be interviewed by you when seeking employment, the chip you have on your soldier is frankly irrelevant!!

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Once again you try to cover up the fact that you are in france only because you married a french girl,as for all your pretence otherwise ie it waz mi education that don it for me, is how does one say without refering to camargue bovine waste matter,not the case.Bet your mum and dad were really glad when you moved to france,money well spent on their part,as for earning good money in francewhy is it that many posters are saying that it is the french that are relocating to the UK to earn better money,maybe you got it the wrong way round,if there is a chip on my "shoulder" it will not be there long,I love a good chip butty.

 

[Cjb]

[quote]Once again you try to cover up the fact that you are in france only because you married a french girl,as for all your pretence otherwise ie it waz mi education that don it for me, is how does one say ...[/quote]

Just as I expected, the same old drivel that you seem more than capable of churning out on a daily basis. Why exactly are you "here in France", Outie? What is it here that does it for you...job prospects??

[Russethouse]

What I wanted to gain was the knowledge that I did the best possible for my daughter - I am doing the best possible for my son too but his requirements and skills are different.

3 houses ? If you had the right education it might have been 30 !

[Missy]

[quote]Why do people living abroad feel they should have a say in choosing the government of the country I live in, I would not expect to help choose your government.[/quote]

Why, as of your own will you left UK do you want to vote for a government you have chosen to leave behind with all that they have made to go wrong! as will be the subject of the many dinner parties conversations...

Quite agree! You left UK so don't bother about the 'who to vote for?'

Whilst I, who has lived in UK for 25+ years, religioulsy paid my taxes to all governments past and present, never asked a penny in benefits of any kind to any of them! I CAN NOT vote in UK!!

and in deference, as I have not lived in France for all that time, I refrained from voting in France.