French railways to face fines for their role in deporting Jews in WW2

[Dick Smith]

I'm just telling you what the commission at Nuremberg said. Your interpretation is up to you. But I don't see where Occam's  Razor comes into it, this isn't looking for the least complex answer, in fact the Bock answer raises so many issues that it is a minefield. The point was that refusing to take part in 'special operations' was not, in at least one noted case, a one-way ticket to the Eastern Front. Therefore a worse fate was not guaranteed for those who refused on conscientious grounds, thus the defence was invalid.

As to the compensation exercise - surely it is about holding organisations to account for their past actions - actions within the lifetimes of many alive today and even posting on this forum! And as the German government has noted there are still over 100,000 ex-slave-labourers alive, and the money might add a little to their comfort and security in their last years.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]But I don't see where Occam's  Razor

comes into it, this isn't looking for the least complex answer, in fact

the Bock answer raises so many issues that it is a minefield. [/quote]

Not necessarily the least complex - it is also about finding the most

likely explanation. "Given their generally observed behaviour, is it

likely or not that the SS would deal with one of their number who

disobeyed orders in a humane manner?" I'd say no, myself. But as you

point out, this is a matter of interpretation that is being argued

about up to the present date.

[quote user="Dick Smith"]

As to the compensation exercise - surely

it is about holding organisations to account for their past actions -

actions within the lifetimes of many alive today and even posting on

this forum! And as the German government has noted there are still over

100,000 ex-slave-labourers alive, and the money might add a little to

their comfort and security in their last years.

[/quote]

Yes - though I am as confused as some others by who exactly is going to

be seeking this compensation as the stories seem to be contradictory. I

don't think that many people would be prepared to defend witholding

comfort and security from survivors of the labour or concentration

camps, but (and I may be wrong) this current case seems to be being

brought by the relatives of some of those who didn't survive. They are

probably very deserving too, but I would still be very pleased to see

money going into the direction of defusing more current hatreds.

[Dick Smith]

I think that's a good idea - after all we have just seen an example of why it is needed. Put a levy on the guilty and use the money to win hearts and minds.

Given the price of cruise missiles I have always thought that it would be cost-effective for the USA to drop hospitals and schools on their enemies, for example.

BTW - Occam's razor is about the simplest alternative, due to a medieval conception that the universe could be reduced to simple elements. It isn't much use in these circumstances, IMHO.

Regarding the SS - these were people who cleaned up and protected British and Empire graveyards in Northern France in WW2, but destroyed Jewish ones. Complex, unfathomable moral values.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]

Regarding the SS - these were people who

cleaned up and protected British and Empire graveyards in Northern

France in WW2, but destroyed Jewish ones. Complex, unfathomable moral

values.

[/quote]

You said it. Very strange people. Sons, husbands, fathers and ruthless.

Re Occam - I think that we may have to agree to differ on that one. But I have one question...why should William of Ockham (I forgot the "k" - sorry) give us Occam's razor?

[Tresco]

I'm sorry but I simply can't get beyond this relatively simple question.

Why do people find it hard to understand that the surviving children/relatives of those who were treated so abominably, (murdered)  find it 'suspect' that those same people (the survivors) are at the forefront of those fighting for compensation, or at least some ackowledgement of the crime committed against them?

Oh and 'Honest Pikey', you do not seem honest to me. Just my view.

 

[Dick Smith]

I think that the old spelling for the place was Occam. Now spelled Ockam or Ockham as well. Not sure which is right by Occam is the simplest and has the least number of different letters...

[Deimos]

Undoubtedly there were some horrific acts carried out. However, a 30 hour inhumane train journey is maybe not the worst of such acts - and the guy leading the claims for compensation is fighting for money to compensate for the train journey Toulouse to Paris.

As far as holding organisations to account - it seems a very "variable" thing these days. We see in UK politics that a government organisation cannot be held to account if there has been a recent change in the person in charge. For example, the Home Office change in leader and suddenly nobody is to blame as it was "the previous guy's fault". Secondly, more importantly and very fortunately the organisations around today are not the same organisations that were around when the acts were committed. Today's SNCF is a very different organisation, different people, different principles, etc. so holding them to account is really not holding those who committed these acts to account.

Tresco wrote: " ... or at least some ackowledgement of the crime committed against them". From what I've read about all this, it is the acknowledgement of the crime committed against them that started the claims for financial compensation. It was Jacques Chirac 's 1995 admission about the Vichy government bearing a heavy responsibility in the deportation of Jews that started the "financial compensation" (initially by the guy who is claiming for the conditions his father experienced during his 30 hour train journey).

I am not trying to trivialise the horrors of the past. I wish people would not forget because the world seems to keep doing or allowing similar things to go on (e.g. maybe if Israel could remember what happened to the Jews they would treat the Palestinians and Lebanese a bit better ?).

Ian

[andyh4]

Without disputing the horrendous nature of what has happened, Ian raises some points about the conditions of travel which have to be seen in the context of travel in the late 1930's (the last time of normal travel before WW2) and not in the context of today's travel.

 

The Paris - Marseilles express of the PLM (ammalgamated into SNCF in 1938) took over 12 hours to complete it's journey without any disruptions caused by war or the movements of troops and munitions.  Against this a journey across much of France, all of Germany and into Poland in 30 hours does not seem excessive.

The use of cattle vans as a means of third class public transport was common even in the 1930's - many vans were marked "8 Cheveaux/40 hommes".  The sole bone of contention with regards the journey therefore should be perhaps that doors were locked from the outside.  Otherwise the conditions of  this journey seem to me as quite normal for the immediate pre-war period, except for the fact that few people would undertake such a journey.  Indeed if they had done so, they would have had to have made several changes of train which would have extended the journey beyond the 30 hours being complained about.

 

The rejection of "only following orders" defence conveniently overlooks the German psyche where the acceptance of and strict adherance to rules and regulations remains even today*.  Herr Bock strikes me as a one off example wheeled in to justify the rejection of the defence and to justify the punishement of German military personnel.

 

* except for adherance to speed limits - especially on the French Autoroutes

[Dick Smith]

Andy - 8 Chevaux, 40 Hommes applied to soldiers and their animals being transported. Not the general public, who were carried in carriages. Even third class. If you look at some survivors' experiences you would not find them 'normal for the immediate pre-war period', unless your idea of normal involves stopping from time to time to throw out the dead, travelling for 48 hours without food and water and, of course, being selected for gassing on arrival. Again I refer you to 'Schindler's List' where you will see a fairly accurate depiction of the situation. Please look for evidence rather than make these very odd statements!

[andyh4]

Sorry Dick but these wagons were in use as passenger transport certainly up to nationalistion on secondary and minor route - the omnibus.  My post started off by saying that I did not dispute the horrendous nature of what happened and was in response to those who posted showing exception to the time of the journey and the nature of the wagons used - neither of which were exceptional - not to the conditions, which were.

[Salty Sam]

It seems rather odd that the kinfolk of those who suffered the atrocities 60 years ago are now committing equally horrendous acts against their neighbours! I refer of course to Israel's indiscriminate use of ordnance against the Lebanese, not to mention attacks on red Cross convoys, ambulances, and the murder of UN Peacekeepers.

I sincerely hope that Israel will foot the bill for the rebuilding of the Lebanese infrastructure.

[Dick Smith]

Andy - can you show any evidence of that, please?

I quote from Quid.Fr

"Aujourd'hui on appelle voiture le matériel destiné aux voyageurs et wagon celui réservé au fret. Les wagons de marchandises indiquèrent jusqu'en 1940 leur capacité de transport en cas de guerre (hommes 40, chevaux 8)."

(My emphasis).

[Viv]

Perhaps if the Lebanese had done more to get rid of Hezbollah themselves, the recents events could have been avoided?

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="Diva Star"]

Perhaps if the Lebanese had done more to get rid of Hezbollah themselves, the recents events could have been avoided?

[/quote]

I repeat - "Israel's indiscriminate use of ordnance against the Lebanese, not to mention attacks on red Cross convoys, ambulances, and the murder of UN Peacekeepers".

So you are saying Hezbollah is now made up of Christian Lebanese, UN forces, and the Red Cross?

Before using Hezbollah as the sole excuse, it is worth taking a look at Israels history of terrorism. Let's start with the King David's Hotel bombing!

[Viv]

The King David's Hotel bombing occured before the state of Israel existed!

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

 I made the same point as Albert about orders and about the people who rounded them up for the nazis.

[/quote]

Ron,

I haven't seen any posts by anyone called Albert anywhere else in this thread. Always interested in meeting another one. Please would you introduce me?

 

[WJT]

Sorry but there are some sick statements here. I am not Jewish but if I had an elderly relative that was a survivor I would be highly offended (I am anyway[:@])! How anyone could say there was no problem in how people were transported knowingly to their deaths is beyond me!  There are elderly survivors living now and many living on very meagre means. I can tell you if it was my Mother or Father or Grandparent, I would be the first to make sure that any company that was built and profited off the backs and blood of slave labour and the deaths of many at least acknowledge and make sure they have compensated.

And to compare the situation in Israel with the terrorists in Lebanon to the Holocaust is sick to no end! To even bring it up on a thread about the Holocaust to try and coyly justify what happened is pure anti-Semitism.

Israel should have stayed in Lebanon in the first place then the terrorists wouldn't have had the opportunity to build up weapons. I now believe that they should go back into Gaza until something can be sorted.  They are a tiny country trying to survive but are surrounded by people that don't want them to exist. It was Hezbollah that was hiding amongst civilians even in family homes hiding behind children in southern Lebanon launching several hundred rockets a day into Israel! It was Hezbollah that didn't care about the loss of life or destruction of Lebanon not Israel, it was Hezbollah that started it. It always amazes me how some people will defend the attacker and villain to the hilt and always blame the victim. I would love to know what some of the posters here that have made these comments would have done to defend your tiny country and your people?

Also to compare our solders that sign up to join our forces that knowingly may have to go to war to the Nazis and collaborators that collected and separated the children from their mothers and marched them to their deaths is again beyond belief. I could go on and list many horror stories and atrocities that people were fully aware of and even assisted in but hopefully most here know what they are. [:(]

[Salty Sam]

Diva Star wrote - "The King David's Hotel bombing occured before the state of Israel existed!"

But coincidence that the attack was ordered by Menachem Begin, then leader of Irgun, an organisation classified as a terrorist group, who then went on to become an Israeli Prime Minister.

To add insult to injury, In July of this year Right Wing Israelis including Benjamin Netanyahu attended a 60th anniversary clebration of the bombing.

I don't understand why today Israel's track record of targetting the innocent continues.

[Rob Roy]

Andyh4 wrote:

"Undoubtedly there were some horrific acts carried out. However, a 30 hour inhumane train journey is maybe not the worst of such acts - and the guy leading the claims for compensation is fighting for money to compensate for the train journey Toulouse to Paris."

If these people are fighting for compensation for the train journey, and not the eventual outcome of that journey, where does the line get drawn? Can my husband now fight for compensation for the transportation, in cattle trucks, endured by his father and others from southern Italy into Nazi Germany (more than 30 hours) as a prisoner of war? Or is that justified because he was a serving officer in the RAF rather than a civilian?

[Dick Smith]

The essential point is that those transported in the J-Trains were going to be exterminated at Auschwitz. That is a different case.

I think that you are belittling the fate of those deportees with this rather silly argument about who gets compensated and who doesn't.

Albert - we had an irruption by a troll - now banned - who was travestying your rather tasteless (especially in this thread) username.

[Salty Sam]

Well said Mary.

[Dick Smith]

Mary?

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]
Albert - we had an irruption by a troll - now banned - who was travestying your rather tasteless (especially in this thread) username.
[/quote]

Would you please tell my why my username is tasteless? Specifically in relation to this thread.

I am part Gipsy and I am well aware that many of my distant relatives were sent to the gas chambers along with the Jews and other 'inferior races'. Indeed, that was the reason that myfather always hated Germans. I try to be more tolerant, but I do object to being told that I should consider my race to be 'tasteless'.

[Deimos]

WJT wrote: "And to compare the situation in Israel with the terrorists in Lebanon to the Holocaust is sick to no end! To even bring it up on a thread about the Holocaust to try and coyly justify what happened is pure anti-Semitism."

I'm afraid I disagree here and being one who mentioned Israel and the Lebanon take great exception to being accused of anti-Semitism WJT (and by the way, best to read news stories in the events happen so you get what lead to what the right way round). Nobody was suggesting that the Israeli devastation of civilian populations in Lebanon justifies the Holocaust. For a start its chronologically impossible (Holocaust happened first).

The Holocaust happened. It was quite horrendous. Surely, now one of the most important things is that we learn and ensure that such things never happen again. Surely the one thing we can do is to make sure that we remember that wars are to be avoided at all costs. The human race has to learn to treat each other better. We must get on with our neighbours not bomb and kill them. The point I (and I believe others) was/were making is that we seem to have learnt nothing and to be making similar errors again. One would certainly have hoped the entire world would have learnt some lessons and certainly hope that the race most devastated by the holocaust might have remembered the importance of how one treats others. I'm afraid that bombing civilian areas even if there are military personnel in the area is a war crime and is illegal. It is black and white that you do not bomb civilians - end of story. If I'm accused of anti-Semitism because of such comments them so should the UN, the people that wrote the Geneva Convention ,etc., etc. It has nothing to do with anti-Semitism - its just plain humanity, how we treat and respect each other. But is seems not. Seems its all about getting money.

So now Israel is laying down the law about enforcing UN Security Council Resolutions - so when is it going to comply with UN Security Council Resolution 242 ? Having suffered so badly one might hope they would stop breaking international law, stop humiliating the Palestinians, comply with UN Security Council Resolutions, etc. (and WJT if you think that is anti-Semitic then say so and I'll tell you where I copied it from !!).

Ian

[Dick Smith]

"Albert" - I am also part Romany. I use insulting terms with the best of them, but you chose the original username of 'Infopikey'. Not nice. I just get a bit tired of 'in your face' statements that are supposed to be anti-political-correctness but are, in fact, just a wee bit puerile. Hey - if you believe in what you say, you could use your real name - how about that?