Census

[Will]

[quote user="Teamedup"]DS we have some really bonny 'sacs' in France, at the moment Castoramas are the mostly brightly coloured I have found, and Carrefours the best as they have firm bottoms.[/quote]

Just my sort of old bags -colourful and with firm derrieres. [:D]

[Miki]

The most delightful bag lady of all was Mrs Shepherd, not sure if she had a firm behind though [:)]

[Dick Smith]

You mean Baroness Shepherd of Northwold?

Made a career of doing precisely what she was told, iirc.

[Russethouse]

Miss Shepherd - The Lady in the Van - Alan Bennett.

A quick but good read !

 

[Miki]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Miss Shepherd - The Lady in the Van - Alan Bennett.

A quick but good read !

[/quote]

Quite right Gay.

The same Mrs Shepherd who lived on Bennett's driveway in Camden Town in a dilapidated van for fifteen years.

Incredible lady and the stories of her and then her Brother were absolutely fascinating.

[Miki]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]You mean Baroness Shepherd of Northwold?

Made a career of doing precisely what she was told, iirc.

[/quote]

Wash your keyboard out Dick, I am talking of a real and proper lady here.

[Russethouse]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lady-Van-Alan-Bennett/dp/1861971222/sr=8-1/qid=1169329824/ref=pd_ka_1/026-5102568-6085261?ie=UTF8&s=books

In the postscript Alan Bennett says that Miss Shepherd appears in snippetts throughout his diaries, but this is just her story.

[hastobe]

[quote user="Valleyboy"]

Gardian

Like yourself, I still cannot understand the knee-jerk reaction to the Poll Tax, except from people who wished to stay outside of the system for some reason, It seems a very fair, and egalitarian, way of collecting local revenues, and yet it generated such a huge volume of hatred from the -  presumably -  egalitarian left wing.

I was in The Strand on the day of the Poll Tax riot, and witnessed first-hand the mindless damage by the mob!

[/quote]

I agree. 

My parents, have always worked hard and, although on low incomes, have been careful with their money and have ploughed it all back into their home.  They have never drawn benefits (even when both were very ill, without pensions and fully entitle to disabillity). Their home is their only asset - they have never taken holidays abroad (we had a second hand tent and camped!),  never had a new car or new clothes (we lived in 'hand me downs'), didn't go to the pub every Friday, - yet because they were careful with their money they pay much higher rates than say a family of 6 - both parents unemployed living in a council house.   At least poll tax was based on your income (i.e. ability to pay) and the use you made of the services (the number in the household) - I see nothing wrong with that. 

It's a little like making those elderly people with homes give them up to pay for their 'care' in a care home.  What about all those who have &*^$* their money up the wall so to speak - spending over their lifetime on new cars, holidays, nights out, clothes etc - such that they don't have any assets to speak of when they get to their old age (and I can think of quite a few that fall into this bracket!) - they get all their care free! 

I would also add that we are much better off under the current system (and its predecessor - the old rates) - but that still doesn't make either  system right - or fair. 

Kathie

[hastobe]

Back to the main point - what happens if you have a second home and so never receive the census notification - and in any case couldn't get to France to complete it?

Kathie

[Will]

Never having personally been counted (or more exactly been chosen to be counted) in France I don't know the answer. But the link I gave to the French census data in a post on the previous page will tell you how many second homes there are in the commune, as well as data such as how many workers, how many retired, the unemployment rate etc, so they must combine the data from the count with data collected from other sources (again, for the statisticians, a wonderful opportunity to 'adjust' the results).

As far as the British census is concerned, the forms have to be filled in to reflect the situation on the particular night chosen for the census - usually a Sunday. Provision is made for members of the household who usually live there but are away temporarily, though if all of the household is away, particularly if it is a second home and nobody is there on census night, they do not have to fill in the form. There is provision for visitors, including holiday homes, so Londoners spending the night in their cottage in the Cotswolds, for example, will not escape the count.

[Valleyboy]

Thanks, HTB, you've saved me coming back to make that point!

I did ask originally for a rational defence of the opposition to the Poll Tax, but to avoid the risk of this thread being pulled or blocked, I'm going to shut up now!

[hastobe]

[quote user="Valleyboy"]

...but to avoid the risk of this thread being pulled or blocked, I'm going to shut up now!

[/quote]

Ditto - mouth is now zipped on the subject!

Kathie

[Teamedup]

It's a little like making those elderly people with homes give them up to pay for their 'care' in a care home.  What about all those who have &*^$* their money up the wall so to speak - spending over their lifetime on new cars, holidays, nights out, clothes etc - such that they don't have any assets to speak of when they get to their old age (and I can think of quite a few that fall into this bracket!) - they get all their care free! 

 

In France people have to pay up if they need care. My friends mother's home had to be sold, so much is means tested in France.

My mother was frugal, being brought up in that environment, I find little to recommend it.

[Russethouse]

I take in France that everyone has to pay up then - am I right in thinking that if the recipient of the care is unable to pay the children & grandchildren are pursued ? Or does 'the state' pay like here ?

[Teamedup]

All avenues are explored. Children, even grandchildren, great grandchildren are expected to help out.  I have no idea what happens if someone has no one and no money. There again, I don't think it wouldn't even be classed as news here either.

There is a very sad case in our village. A man was very badly abused by his parents when a child and he was expected to pay towards his parents keep. I think that he sort of divorced his parents, there must be an expression for that, so that he didn't have to pay. He still has the scars on his wrists and ankles where they tied him up with wire. His brother died and no one did anything at all about that.

[Cerise]

TU - interesting question.  The first generation of British immigrants will be due to land up in the Maison de Retraite quite soon.  Will their unsuspecting offspring in UK be pursued for their upkeep?  If not will they be repatriated?  Not something I'd ever thought about I must admit, can they pursue those abroad for payment?

[Teamedup]

I know of two families where the old person's family who live in Italy have been contacted and are expected to pay. What I don't know is if they pay up or not.

[LanguedocGal2]

[quote user="Teamedup"]I know of two families where the old person's family who live in Italy have been contacted and are expected to pay. What I don't know is if they pay up or not.[/quote]

This is fascinating! I’m afraid, I only plan my life in chunks of 10 years so did not research this aspect of French life. My knowledge is thus extremely vague.

So where does this myth about the elderly in France being so much better off (cared for by the State) than those in the UK come from? Sounds to me that the off-springs being pursued to finance their elderly relatives' care maybe the flip side of the succession laws protecting their rights.  There is some justice there somewhere.

[Miki]

[quote user="Valleyboy"]

Thanks, HTB, you've saved me coming back to make that point!

I did ask originally for a rational defence of the opposition to the Poll Tax, but to avoid the risk of this thread being pulled or blocked, I'm going to shut up now!

[/quote]

And you got a reply and nothing irrational about it but obviously one that you preferred not to agree with, even though it was factual.

And TU posts a report on how the elderly would find it here should they need to go in to care. I expect some others of us have witnessed this, I know we have and it shocked the life out of one young family we knew, who brought their parents over with them, so much so, they all decided it would be better to go back to the UK.

[quote] At least poll tax was based on your income (i.e. ability to pay) and

the use you made of the services (the number in the household) - I see

nothing wrong with that. [/quote]

Kathie, the poll tax was by far the most unfair tax the country had seen in an awful long time, there was and is, very few economics "experts" who could believe in the the poll tax as it was brought in. Also the poll tax had a fixed tax rate and not based on ability to pay (you could claim if you were poor but it was extremely difficult to get it, ask some of the then trainee Nurses in quarters paying 20% of what they did not have, just for one section) and do read again what I said about services in each council and what actually happened. It does make me laugh, it was quickly scrapped and the reason the government scrapped it, was quite simple, because it was seen to be rubbish, ill judged and ill thought out and simply a last hurrah for a sad Lady who hoped this would see her her gain back favour, it didn't and thankfully the poll tax was quickly seen as totally unworkable. ! But as ever, some will look back with fondness about something that never was, just as Thachersim will still have its supporters, even though her wets and fawning supporters stabbed her in the back and wanted her gone...Makes one wonder, when I hear some people talk, why she is still not in power really !!

[Miki]

[quote] So where does this myth about the elderly in France being so

much better off (cared for by the State) than those in the UK come

from? Sounds to me that the off-springs being pursued to finance their

elderly relatives' care maybe the flip side of the succession laws

protecting their rights.  There is some justice there somewhere.[/quote]

Well LG, probably the same place that says that all French pensioners get double the UK pension, that life is slower in France, that all the Brits coming here will stay here for life à la "never going back", that no racism exists, that kids are free to roam safely wherever they want, schooling is magnifique that no grafiti exists and on and on...France is great at one thing though, it leads the way in Myths to Brits [;-)]

[5-element]

Edit: below was following on to LG's post - now we have some "reponses intercalees"! Confusing![:P]

Yep! Here in France, children are responsible for their parents right to the bitter end. There are very complex assessments and evaluations being carried out to see if the children/grandchildren etc... can afford to pay for the nursing home, it is all carefully means-tested. I have heard of at least one case when the (French) son, living in the UK with his British wife and children, was pursued and made to pay for his mother. I don't know what happens to British expats who have to go in a nursing home here - my guess is that most people will have made provisions to return to the UK, once they get to "a certain age" - I did discover that amongst my British expat friends here. But it is not the case for all, so I too would like to know...

You are right to make the link to the succession laws LG. It's part of the same idea. If you are elderly and no family at all, then the State will take over, and pay for you - but my guess is that maybe the kind of nursing homes available for this category of persons, is even more dire than the more upmarket kind? This is only speculation.

[Cassis]

Miki forgot to mention the health service and the weather.

[Teamedup]

Yes 5-element, it is all part of the same family thing. Some of it is very hard for me to get to grips with.

A bloke we know and his brother had to pay off his mother's debts when she died. LOL can you imagine kids in the UK being presented with debts their defunct parents had rung up in France............

 

[5-element]

Goodness, TeamedUp, don't get me started on that!!!

I have had more than my share of being left with a legacy. My (French) father died suddenly without leaving a will, and with extraordinarily complicated accounts by design. His finances were in a mess, lots of debts as he was single-handedly financing an ever-expanding refuge for cats and dogs (having become something of a misanthrope in his later years). Furthermore, as soon as he died, somebody decided to take him to court to reclaim funds on a company he had sold years before, and which had gone bankrupt. This was in 1992. The mess is still going on. Eventually I was able to renunce the inheritance, but had been badly advised and had no idea of what was really going on (stepmother was not co-operating). But I had years of bailiffs turning up on my doorstep in my little village in North Yorkshire, bringing me summons to attend court cases in France. My brother - living in France - had his bank account cleaned out by the French Inland Revenue, for VAT payment which my father had defaulted on.

And this is only a very, very short version. The whole field of inheritance laws and family legal responsibilities is still  a nightmare here in France.

I also have English friends for whom the inheritance laws worked in reverse.

Wealthy father had bought a holiday home in France, had 2 children. One was a good son, the other one not.  Disowned son lived in England, no contact between them. At death of said father,  half of the holiday home  went to  the otherwise disowned son, and there wassn't a thing anyone could do about it!

[Miki]

Thank you Soz, I think we may be able to come up with a few more  perhaps [:)]