Census

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Pangur"]

As a non Brit, I seem to find that only English people (and Ulster loyalists) refer to themselves as British - Scots tell the French they're Scottish and Welsh that they're Welsh. 

[/quote]

Usually in reply to "Vous etes anglais?", I find.  And if they're Scottish or Welsh, they're not anglais.

Try asking an Englishman if he's Scottish or Welsh, he'll soon put you right!   

[RumziGal]

[quote user="LanguedocGal2"]

Perhaps a French person on the forum can explain? Does it come from the education system?

[/quote]

I'm not French, can I answer?  [:)]

They do learn, very briefly, in school about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and its constituent parts.

But as most UKers don't know the difference between UK and GB themselves, it would maybe be a bit much to expect French children to be in the least bit interested either.

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="RumziGal"]

But as most UKers don't know the difference between UK and GB themselves, it would maybe be a bit much to expect French children to be in the least bit interested either.

 [/quote]

Good point. A very good point. And how often do the news media, politicos, etc refer to "UK law?" I'm sure one of the lawyers here will be happy to correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that any such thing exists. English law, Scottish law, yes. UK law, no.

[Beryl]

Might this be the case with the Channel Islands Jon?

They come under the UK umbrella for a few things such as defence , would this therefore be  UK law?

[LanguedocGal2]

[quote user="Jon"][quote user="LanguedocGal2"]

I simply think it's strange as they never seem to make the same mistakes with Belgium, Spain and Swizerland.

[/quote]

Are you saying that the French make note on their multitudinous forms to the effect that one can be either Vlaams, Wallon or just plain Belgian depending on preference? How very accomodating of them. I can't say I'd noticed their making these clear distinctions. I shall have to pay more attention to news items about Belgium as and when they occur.
[/quote]

No Jon, I was talking bout Fonctionnaires and professionals such as Journalists for example talking about les Brits/Anglais. So, not surprised you've not noticed. On the census form in France I would expect them to put Suisse, Belge, Espagnol, Britannique as of course that would be correct and not Wallons ..., Catalans..., Suisse Romande... Anglais....  Surely, not that complicated.

[RumziGal]

Tarantaraaaa, Wikipedia comes to the rescue!    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_law

I studied all this a long time ago.  The only thing I remember is the tedium of Roman Law, and the effing Paisley Snail!  [6]  When I am old and senile, I will probably blether incomprehensibly about things like this.   I hope so.   At least it won't have been wasted.  [:)] 

[LanguedocGal2]

[quote user="RumziGal"][quote user="LanguedocGal2"]

Perhaps a French person on the forum can explain? Does it come from the education system?

[/quote]

I'm not French, can I answer?  [:)]

They do learn, very briefly, in school about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and its constituent parts.

But as most UKers don't know the difference between UK and GB themselves, it would maybe be a bit much to expect French children to be in the least bit interested either.[/quote]

I was not trying to make a comparison between the UK and France in terms of knowledge but simply interested in how this inability of officialdom to be corrected came from.  Gardian's comments regarding the reaction to them saying Britannique and the census fonctionnaires ignoring them and putting 'Anglais' rang true for me too.

What the ordinary person in the street knows is one thing but I still think it's probably not asking too much for these professionals to get it right.  I don't know how the census papers are counted in France but can you imagine that on getting them together, they find 2000 marked ''Anglais'' and 1500 marked Britanniques.  What do they do? Chuck one lot or mark them as 'Other'?. 

Who knows, perhaps there are really 800,000 Anglais and 550,000 Britanniques in France.[:D].

Edited:

[Pangur]

If the enumerators are confused about what is meant by nationality, it makes much more sense from an interviewing point of view to put English than British.   Then the statisticians can put all the English, Scottish and Welsh together as British in the final analysis.  You can always put subgroups names together to make an overall group, but if you only collect the overall name, you can never split it out.   To even suggest that INSEE wouldn't know how to classify a English person...honestly, I can't imagine it being a problem.   Remember - census enumerators tend not to be professionals or officials - they are just doing a job for which they have received basic training. And in offices, again it makes much more sense for them to take down the lowest subgroup and have it coded up than have superiors complain that they actually want country of birth rather than nationality...

[LanguedocGal2]

[quote user="Pangur"]If the enumerators are confused about what is meant by nationality, it makes much more sense from an interviewing point of view to put English than British.   Then the statisticians can put all the English, Scottish and Welsh together as British in the final analysis.  

This long drawn out process could so simply be avoided, but what would be the point?

You can always put subgroups names together to make an overall group, but if you only collect the overall name, you can never split it out.   

I understood that the French do not collect information on ethnic subgroups. I saw a programme recently where they looked at the pros and cons of the British system (as they often do) in this respect. It’s something about the republic not recognising ethnic differences. A good one that!  [:-))]  So, noting it in the first place is probably not terribly useful unless of course INSEE are being devious and secretly breaking the Republic’s rules.[;-)]

To even suggest that INSEE wouldn't know how to classify a English person...honestly, I can't imagine it being a problem.

You’re clearly right but extra work for nothing though.

  Remember - census enumerators tend not to be professionals or officials - they are just doing a job for which they have received basic training. 

Must be very basic but see your point.

And in offices, again it makes much more sense for them to take down the lowest subgroup and have it coded up than have superiors complain that they actually want country of birth rather than nationality...

But these would be different questions and usually are on French official forms (not just census): lieu de naissance / Nationalite. All I can see is a lot of work being created unnecessarily by not simply getting the Britannique in, in the first place.

[/quote]

Re the regional identities issue, of course, tribalism is everywhere. I know a few Spaniards working in LR who tend to refer to themselves as ‘’Catalan’’ first.  I also know a Basque in London who answers ‘’Basque country’’ when asked where she is from. One of my best friends from Brittany tends to say ‘’Bretonne’’ before French.  But with regards to ‘’nationality’’, they all say Spanish or French.

[Turnip]

AH - that snail.I now bore my students with the snail saga.[:-))]

[Turnip]

AH - that snail. I bore my students with the snail sage these days.[:-))]

[nom de plume]

We had ours delivered on the 18th and they were collected on the 22nd.

One for the house and one each for the pair of us. The mayor had even

sent an explanation in english as to what it was all about and an

assurance that it was confidential. I bet he had a quick glance at them

through. And I would love to know what some of our local Brits have

declared as their main residence, whether they work, whether they are

employed and their professions, qualifications or complete lack of

them!                       

Diana

[Pangur]

Languedocgirl, it's not a lot of work, seriously.  It's standard proceedure on many surveys and fixing it is literally a click of a button. There are 100,000 British according to INSEE resident in the whole of France.  Providing specific training on how to classify the handful of British people they might meet to every functionnaire, part time ennumerator and official is a much greater waste of resources than a simple process of the computer grouping together English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish into British once the data has been collected. 

[Teamedup]

[quote user="nom de plume"]We had ours delivered on the 18th and they were collected on the 22nd. One for the house and one each for the pair of us. The mayor had even sent an explanation in english as to what it was all about and an assurance that it was confidential. I bet he had a quick glance at them through. And I would love to know what some of our local Brits have declared as their main residence, whether they work, whether they are employed and their professions, qualifications or complete lack of them!                       

Diana

[/quote]

 

If I remember properly our census forms were numbered, so I doubt that they are confidential. Index finger to just under an eye and a very gentle pull.

[Gardian]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

[quote user="nom de plume"]We had ours delivered on the 18th and they were collected on the 22nd. One for the house and one each for the pair of us. The mayor had even sent an explanation in english as to what it was all about and an assurance that it was confidential. I bet he had a quick glance at them through. And I would love to know what some of our local Brits have declared as their main residence, whether they work, whether they are employed and their professions, qualifications or complete lack of them!                       

Diana

[/quote]

If I remember properly our census forms were numbered, so I doubt that they are confidential. Index finger to just under an eye and a very gentle pull.

[/quote]

I don't think that ours were numbered - for one thing, she had to scrap her 1st attempt because she had trouble spelling our surname and started again with a fresh one!

OK, it didn't go in to a sealed envelope and for all I know she may have given a photocopy to everybody in the village (provided the boulanger could get his clapped-out copier to work!), but I somehow doubt whether the news of my d.o.b., number of rooms, whether we've got somewhere to park the car, etc, etc, would be terribly interesting to anybody. 

It's nothing to get hung up about.